New (early) 2010 metro estimates (aka Houston edges out Philadelphia for #5 largest US Metroploitan Area) (highest, living)

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by chiatldal

I know, they convince themselves that area is the even playing field and not the statistical metro. but it’s funny I think their insulted by DFW and now Houston being larger. Again access and function are not the same thing LMAO you can’t bargain DFW suburbs for places that not even Philly suburbs, there just close WTF. They’re always bashing sunbelt cities for car culture, bash because of sprawl and boast about how their cities don’t. But then when there is a city or metro ranking than suddenly they discount the sunbelt metro sprawl “which take away the point of them bashing sunbelt cities” then all of the sudden they created their own sprawling metro. Yes TBS very funny.

You do realize that on function (not access or proximity) 54% of the combined total workers or employees of Mercer County interact daily with the Philly MSA (commuting in or out), only 17% as such with the NY MSA, so yes it seems odd, very odd

And there are areas excluded that would be within Harris county, given its size, that would be included here because of a different arbitrary boundary so yes there are distinct differences

And oddly you say places that aren't Philly suburbs, they are marketed as such to sell the homes and the people consider themselves to be living in the Philly suburbs, the only thing that does not is the census

And no I am really not arguing for places in far away expansive undeveloped lands, I actually believe the UA is the most meaningful census metric available (and have stated repeatedly), it is the only one that does not rely on municipal boundaries but developed and populated areas - and yes on this metric surprisingly Philadelphia is 20-30% larger than both the TX metros still (without the additions discussed). BTW Trenton/Mercer was part of the UA but also that has been removed. It maintained more than 6K density (6 times the UA criteria)straight through

The people that actually live there believe the census is innacurate, maybe they know something

Philly has 5.4 million people in 1,700 sq miles of UA, not exactly sprawl, based on census cuts there is another 900K-1 million directly connected to the current UA space of additional UA over approximately 500 additional sq miles, so yes that would be without with the census cut lines 6.4 million in 2,200 sq miles - still much more cohesive and a considerably smaller area than the 5.5 million of the core DFW area in 3,300 sq miles

[Cowboys fan in Houston]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

Philly has 5.4 million people in 1,700 sq miles of UA, not exactly sprawl, based on census cuts there is another 900K-1 million directly connected to the current UA space of additional UA over approximately 500 additional sq miles, so yes that would be without with the census cut lines 6.4 million in 2,200 sq miles - still much more cohesive and a considerably smaller area than the 5.5 million of the core DFW area in 3,300 sq miles

Which I have no problem with. Its when certain people want to claim the reason DFW has 6.5 million is because its 9k square miles. The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority live in 1/3 of the metro area.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by LAnative10

Which I have no problem with. Its when certain people want to claim the reason DFW has 6.5 million is because its 9k square miles. The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority live in 1/3 of the metro area.

And I agree with you wholeheartedly on both DFW and Houston, both have the vast majority of population close to the core, less dense but very developed none-the-less. The difference is at the end of this core they have more sparcely populated areas that expand out to the huge counties included in the MSAs. Whereas in Philly the developed core continues in most directions but the census just cuts the count (and very close to the midpoint) at arbitrary (well because of complex commuter patterns etc.) lines based on municipalities (which are considerably smaller area wise here) but the developed area does not stop. That is really more my argument, the developed and cohesive areas just get cut in the process

Houston and DFW really to me seem like a modern adaptation of CA development, pretty dense and mostly very cohesive in the core, being newer they seem just a little less dense than LA/SD/Bay Area etc. but in style seem similar in many ways

[Spade]

Originally Posted by rainrock

By any chance did you use takethescenicroute.com for your mileage markers? Unbelievable.


Lancaster County to Philadlephia County is 35 miles. Lancaster County to Philadlephias western suburban corrporate hubs is 20 miles.

Lehigh County(allentown) to Philadlephia County is 30 miles. Lehigh County to Philadlephia N corporate suburbs 20 miles.

Berks County(Reading) to Philadlephia County 30 miles. Reading to Phillys NW suburban corporate HUbs 20 miles.




So do you want the extra 1 - 1 1/2 million people in the expanded areas of the Texas metroes or dont you?

If you do want them then zip-it about Philly getting Trenton/Reading/Vineland etc statistical components.

If you dont want the people in the peripheral of the 10,000 sq. miles then this discussion is has no merit.

4.Philadelphia 6 M
5.Dallas 5.5 M
6.Houston 5 M

Houston to Galveston is 50 miles= correct
Philadelphia to Allentown is 63 miles= correct
Philadelphia to Reading is 62 miles=correct
Philadelphia to Lancaster is 78 miles= correct

Philadelphia County to Lancaster County is 35 miles
Philadelphia County to Lehigh County is 30 miles
Philadelphia to Berks County is 30 miles

So why didn't you do the same for Houston and Galveston County? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Houston to Galveston County is a mere 10 miles from each other. Maybe even closer. Harris County and Galveston County are adjacent to each other. The same cannot be said for Lancaster, Lehigh, and Berks being adjacent to the core county.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Spade

Houston to Galveston is 50 miles= correct
Philadelphia to Allentown is 63 miles= correct
Philadelphia to Reading is 62 miles=correct
Philadelphia to Lancaster is 78 miles= correct

Philadelphia County to Lancaster County is 35 miles
Philadelphia County to Lehigh County is 30 miles
Philadelphia to Berks County is 30 miles

So why didn't you do the same for Houston and Galveston County? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Houston to Galveston County is a mere 10 miles from each other. Maybe even closer. Harris County and Galveston County are adjacent to each other. The same cannot be said for Lancaster, Lehigh, and Berks being adjacent to the core county.

Actually not sure how you calculated Reading and Allentown, they are both less than 40 from Philadelphia, lancaster is correct and I agree it is too far to be considered and you forgot Mercer 11 miles and Atlantic county 16 miles (though AC is 40 miles).

and on Harris county and Philadelphia (being the core county) not touching the other counties, really, it (Harris County)covers a larger footprint than the whole census designated Philadelphia urbanized area, which is 1,700 sq miles. Phildelphia County is less than 1/10th the square miles of Harris county, 136 sq miles to be exact. There are 5.4 million people that live in the same space as Harris county alone...

And my argument really differs in that i am not looking to add places far away just those cohesive connected in continuous development

And BTW the comparison to Galveston was because it is included in the count, adding all the places and population within that distance would put the Philly MSA at over 8 million, and would still be only 6,000 sq miles

The other odd thing is many of these so-called detached places are served by Philadelphias public transit, oddly enough

And just to use your Harris county example, if you plopped Harris on top of Phildelphia this whole debate would mute actually, so kudos, because, Atlantic, Mercer, Ocean (not even being debated its part of the NY MSA) would all part of the Harris county, not to mention that Berks, Northampton, Lehigh, Lancaster, Cape May, Kent would all be the next counties, most of which are not even being argued but like the idea that would put the Philly MSA closer to 8.5-9 million, so yes another very good point, thank you

[Spade]

Well my comment was to rainrock and how he didn't post how close Harris County was to Galveston County. He only looked at Houston city to Galveston city and that doesn't tell the entire story. That's why I didn't bring up Atlantic County and Mercer County.

As far as Allentown to Philadelphia. I went to yahoo and mapquest and both state that Allentown is over 60 miles from Philadelphia and there is a pretty wide gap of rural land between the two areas. I don't see why Allentown should be counted towards Philadelphia.

The sizes of Harris County and Philadelphia County is not anybody's problem but Philadelphia. In fact, IMO, it's irrelevant. It is what it is. There are many large parts of Harris County that are not developed on and never will be developed on and many parts are water and/or swamp. We can do all these hypotheticals all we want to. But in reality, the majority of Houston's population comes from Harris County and counties adjacent to it and any other counties that are counted has a population of well under 100,000.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Spade

Well my comment was to rainrock and how he didn't post how close Harris County was to Galveston County. He only looked at Houston city to Galveston city and that doesn't tell the entire story. That's why I didn't bring up Atlantic County and Mercer County.

As far as Allentown to Philadelphia. I went to yahoo and mapquest and both state that Allentown is over 60 miles from Philadelphia and there is a pretty wide gap of rural land between the two areas. I don't see why Allentown should be counted towards Philadelphia.

The sizes of Harris County and Philadelphia County is not anybody's problem but Philadelphia. In fact, IMO, it's irrelevant. It is what it is. There are many large parts of Harris County that are not developed on and never will be developed on and many parts are water and/or swamp. We can do all these hypotheticals all we want to. But in reality, the majority of Houston's population comes from Harris County and counties adjacent to it and any other counties that are counted has a population of well under 100,000.

I disagree on the mapquest number(on a straight line there 40 miles and quicker ways than the winding mapquest path, it only takes interstates and not other limited access roads, the drive can be done without traffic in 40 minutes) I traverse this all the time g to avoid some central Jersey traffic into the Western NY suburbs, no actually there is not a lot of rural land seperating them, there is continuous UA, and I agree the vast majority of population is in Harris, this MSA Alenntown/Beth is basically a million people next to another, I mean like ten miles of 500K next to an MSA of 6 million. And the point on the size of the county is purely that because that is how census counts MSAs, so given those parameters the other population would be added. And the areas that sorround are not places with 100K, there is 1.6 million (3 seperate MSAs) people directly abutting the MSA to the West, 750K to the East, 18 Million to the North and 3 Million to the South, they are all the MSAs with the county divisions/boundaries less than 40 miles.


Below is UA map for further perspective (the yellow highlighted area defined UA by census for Philly is smaller than the area covered by Harris county though shaped differently. Also the large swath consider non-urban in South Jersey is broader Pine barrens, preserved National and International eco forreest, so no one can build there. Allentown/Beth are the pink area just above the Highway 9 (Which is really 476 apparently the census screwed that up too) You will also note the UA cuts (by the census at reading (Northwest of Philly) and more pronounced cut at Mercer to the North East

[chiatldal]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

You do realize that on function (not access or proximity) 54% of the combined total workers or employees of Mercer County interact daily with the Philly MSA (commuting in or out), only 17% as such with the NY MSA, so yes it seems odd, very odd

No, than Mercer County would be part of the Philly metro no one is making mistakes, no one is messing with Philly.

And there are areas excluded that would be within Harris county, given its size, that would be included here because of a different arbitrary boundary so yes there are distinct differences

Why are you worry about Harris county size, when Houston MSA is beyond Harris county? Sugar Land is in Fort Bend County. Look at this way Atlanta has 28 counties because counties are small. If Houston MSA counties were smaller it would smiply have more counties, the area wouldn't make much of a difference. And quit with the size thing remember it's fuction.

And oddly you say places that aren't Philly suburbs, they are marketed as such to sell the homes and the people consider themselves to be living in the Philly suburbs, the only thing that does not is the census

Sooo! Atlanta’s regional commission considers Hall county a Atlanta county but to the censes it’s just CSA. And some times Athens and Rome are marketed and consider suburbs but not to the census. The census is not cheating Philly.

And no I am really not arguing for places in far away expansive undeveloped lands, I actually believe the UA is the most meaningful census metric available (and have stated repeatedly), it is the only one that does not rely on municipal boundaries but developed and populated areas - and yes on this metric surprisingly Philadelphia is 20-30% larger than both the TX metros still (without the additions discussed). BTW Trenton/Mercer was part of the UA but also that has been removed. It maintained more than 6K density (6 times the UA criteria)straight through

You do know the wiki list is old right, some poster from NC posted a link of 2008 urban areas in another thread, and Atlanta was over 4.3 from 3.5 in 2000. Atlanta gain nearly a million DFW and Houston gain over a million since 2000. So DFW "not sure about Houston" might be pass Philly. But we will see when the 2010 Official census release, hopely that poster or some one comes though and post a more up to date estimates for Urban areas.

The people that actually live there believe the census is innacurate, maybe they know something

Philly has 5.4 million people in 1,700 sq miles of UA, not exactly sprawl, based on census cuts there is another 900K-1 million directly connected to the current UA space of additional UA over approximately 500 additional sq miles, so yes that would be without with the census cut lines 6.4 million in 2,200 sq miles - still much more cohesive and a considerably smaller area than the 5.5 million of the core DFW area in 3,300 sq miles

I said yall want Philly to sprawl so it can be ranked highier, I don't care about density.

[Spade]

All mapquest and yahoo did was follow 476 which is nearly straight line from the immediate Philadelphia metropolitan area. I mean there are many arguments out there for every city that make the straight line theory. Houston to Galveston is probably closer to each other if we used the straight line thing.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by chiatldal

No, than Mercer County would be part of the Philly metro no one is making mistakes, no one is messing with Philly.

Why are you worry about Harris county size, when Houston MSA is beyond Harris county? Sugar Land is in Fort Bend County. Look at this way Atlanta has 28 counties because counties are small. If Houston MSA counties were smaller it would smiply have more counties, the area wouldn't make much of a difference. And quit with the size thing remember it's fuction.

Sooo! Atlanta’s regional commission considers Hall county a Atlanta county but to the censes it’s just CSA. And some times Athens and Rome are marketed and consider suburbs but not to the census. The census is not cheating Philly.

You do know the wiki list is old right, some poster from NC posted a link of 2008 urban areas in another thread, and Atlanta was over 4.3 from 3.5 in 2000. Atlanta gain nearly a million DFW and Houston gain over a million since 2000. So DFW "not sure about Houston" might be pass Philly. But we will see when the 2010 Official census release, hopely that poster or some one comes though and post a more up to date estimates for Urban areas.

I said yall want Philly to sprawl so it can be ranked highier, I don't care about density.

Honestly it is basically stupid to respond, you don't understand any of the points, and YES (in caps in hopes you understnad) Philly missed the MSA in 2000 with Mercer by less than .2% well over the CSA designation. The combined interplay is yes 54% (but misses becuase it is done with fragmented counties that maintain odd borders, so no single one exceeded 25% alone, and Yes the interplay with the NY MSA is less than 1/3rd that of the Philly MSA - all facts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but because Mercer also exceeded 15% with the NY MSA (15.2% to be exact) it qualified for both the Philly and NY CSA - the decison (yes again it was the decision, read the census document) gave those making it a nearly 10% COL adjustment to make the move, pretty sly. Also in 1998 a huge US Steel plant that had 18,000 Mercer employees crossing the 3 miles into the plant in PA closed, that was how it moved.

on UA as of 2008 from the CENSUS (again caps for you) both DFW and Houston were trailing by 20 and 30% respectively, they were not based on 2000 data.

And again I am not talking about adding areas in the hinterlands, the difference is there is nothing for hundreds of miles outside of the metros you discuss, there are seperate cores that also draw, there are many counties that could have multiple CSA affiliations here. the interplay is far more sofisticated. I am talking places excluded that would fit inside these other cities (then no issues right?).

And your access thing, dont be bitter about Hoboken, this discussion has zero to do with that, that was a walking discussion not metro. It is far more than access it is functionality. Stay in your myopic island in the middle nowhere world (And don't say Chicago because it is one too) and fail to look around, statistics lie many times without rational interpretation.

Or maybe you are right traveling 11 miles definately does provide zero opportunity for functionality, maybe just access, but the access funtionaly impacts 54% of all commuters working in or traveling out of the county, go figure yes no functional relationship

I am not making this up, seriously the truth here is stranger than fiction. Hmm 15% of people in Buckhead commute to Marrietta but 54% interact with Atlanta, lets move Buckhead to Atlanta, my sarcasm is closer to truth than you would believe.

And the areas i am talking about would be in the central 2,000 sq miles, i am NOT (again in caps for you) talking about counties miles away.

But you wont get it and will say wow you want sprawl, NO, these are areas in the sprawl, these are areas that are more developed than all but like 2 or 3 zips in you MSA, this you do not understand