Best downtown in the South (live, state, better, places)

[AlGreen]

Originally Posted by eek

with that kind of thinking, west texas = mexico, south florida = a caribbean island, chicago isn't midwest, etc. etc.

west texas does not have more in common with mexico nor does south florida have more in common with the caribbean, so those references make no sense

some ppl in the south (and the north that buy into this crap) are very interesting...its like the south:

here's our region. oh but certain cities in our region are NOT part of the south. we don't care where they are geographically located, they don't "feel" southern.

well what is southern?

uh...well...you know... *insert stereotypes they don't want used against them ever in any type of debate*

typical northerner: the south is mad boring. no kind of diversity, nothing to do, transit is garbage, etc.
southerner: but we ARE diverse and there are plenty of things to do...you can get urban living too. our night life is great.

but then you don't want to claim cities like dc, new orleans, miami, etc.
cities like atl and charlotte don't "feel" southern, either right?

if southerners on cd defined the region of the south it'd be a region shaped like swiss cheese. pieces cut out.

the point is, all regions of the nation need to share some characteristics. even the northeast with its different subregions has too much in common. to say that baltimore/dc has anything in common with most of the south is a huge stretch, to say the least

so okay, HISTORICALLY the dc/maryland area was a part of the south. and if one wants to use the imaginary, man-made mason dixon line (which has absolutely no bearing on the present day) as an indicator of what's north and south, then fine..baltimore and dc are part of the south

[Akhenaton06]

Originally Posted by eek

with that kind of thinking, west texas = mexico, south florida = a caribbean island, chicago isn't midwest, etc. etc.

Culturally, west Texas is much more Southwestern than Southern. El Paso is not a Southern city.

The Miami area is almost like a cultural extension of the Caribbean onto the mainland. It does have small pockets of Southern culture though.

but then you don't want to claim cities like dc, new orleans, miami, etc.
cities like atl and charlotte don't "feel" southern, either right?

DC and Miami are in the transition areas since they immediately border other regions. The South is more of a gradient, and they aren't in the thick of it. Outside of their African American communities, there's not much left there that's culturally Southern. The opposite is true of cities like Charlotte and Atlanta.

So I see it from both perspectives.

[Avtomat Kalashnikova]

Downtown D.C. at night:

[clean_polo]

Originally Posted by Akhenaton06

Culturally, west Texas is much more Southwestern than Southern. El Paso is not a Southern city.

The Miami area is almost like a cultural extension of the Caribbean onto the mainland. It does have small pockets of Southern culture though.



DC and Miami are in the transition areas since they immediately border other regions. The South is more of a gradient, and they aren't in the thick of it. Outside of their African American communities, there's not much left there that's culturally Southern. The opposite is true of cities like Charlotte and Atlanta.

So I see it from both perspectives.

Good point.

[Avtomat Kalashnikova]

Oh and show me any city in the south that has a subway system thats that packed!

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Akhenaton06

Culturally, west Texas is much more Southwestern than Southern. El Paso is not a Southern city.

AK? You are a good man, but you are dead wrong on this one (at least, of course, IMHO! LOL).

Very correct El Paso and the trans-pecos "horn" of Texas is not Southern (even though, as a matter of historical trivia, the city/country voted for secession and there is a Confederate monument on the courthouse lawn!).

But, the majority of West Texas has not much (except some topographical similarities) to the interior SW states (i.e. New Mexico and Arizona).

I repeat and will to the day I croak, that while West Texas (and this could, in macrocosm, apply to the state at large) is certainly "Southwestern", such a label has to be looked at in its own right. That is to say, it is not part, historically nor culturally with the "Southwest" of New Mexico and Arizona. They are simply two different critters. The former is "western South"...the latter is "southern West." Texas -- even west Texas was primarily a product of American South influences (reflected in ways ranging from speech to religion to folkways and country cooking). On the other hand, NM and AZ did not even become states until the early 20th century. They were primarily shaped by Native American/Mexican culture, with almost nothing Southern about them.

Not in the least trying to be patronizing nor smart-a$$, AK (and I hope that goes without saying anyway! ), but can you give any good solid reasons what most of even west Texas has in common -- in terms of long standing history and culture -- what would make it part of a "Southwest" which bonds it with New Mexico and Arizona?

[Akhenaton06]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

AK? You are a good man, but you are dead wrong on this one (at least, of course, IMHO! LOL).

Very correct El Paso and the trans-pecos "horn" of Texas is not Southern (even though, as a matter of historical trivia, the city/country voted for secession and there is a Confederate monument on the courthouse lawn!).

But, the majority of West Texas has not much (except some topographical similarities) to the interior SW states (i.e. New Mexico and Arizona).

I repeat and will to the day I croak, that while West Texas (and this could, in macrocosm, apply to the state at large) is certainly "Southwestern", such a label has to be looked at in its own right. That is to say, it is not part, historically nor culturally with the "Southwest" of New Mexico and Arizona. They are simply two different critters. The former is "western South"...the latter is "southern West." Texas -- even west Texas was primarily a product of American South influences (reflected in ways ranging from speech to religion to folkways and country cooking). On the other hand, NM and AZ did not even become states until the early 20th century. They were primarily shaped by Native American/Mexican culture, with almost nothing Southern about them.

Not in the least trying to be patronizing nor smart-a$$, AK (and I hope that goes without saying anyway! ), but can you give any good solid reasons what most of even west Texas has in common -- in terms of long standing history and culture -- what would make it part of a "Southwest" which bonds it with New Mexico and Arizona?

OK, I suppose Southwestern wasn't the best term. I don't think adobe houses and the like when I think of west Texas. But it's quite different from the rest of the South culturally and even geographically. I think of "No Country for Old Men" when I think of west Texas (even though the film is supposed to be set in 1980). At any rate, west Texas is also part of that transition zone where Southern influences are pretty light and then get noticeably heavier as you traverse across the former republic. Not having actually done that, that's the impression I get anyway.

[eek]

southerners don't agree on the south or what it means to be southern. lol. (i already knew this)
part of the problem is that SOME of you guys believe in (IMHO) outdated stereotypes of the south. you buy into them and feel like certain cities don't "feel" southern because they don't fit the stereotype.

lets flip that. how would you feel if i said that the south was full of backwards ppl from the middle of nowhere, and is boring, has no places to have fun, no nightlife, no real diversity, etc. etc.

what if *i* bought into that stereotype? how then would you defend the south and tell me that what i was saying was not true?

see, IMHO, cities like miami, new orleans, el paso (which i loved), dc, etc. showcase the south's diversity. the south has diversity just like the north. we have ny, boston, philly, jersey city, etc. but the entire north isn't like that. but these cities are still a part of the north. does that make sense?

with you guys type of thinking, cities like houston/dallas, etc. won't remain "southern" for long and neither will charlotte, raleigh, atl and any other progressive city in the south. you guys will run out of cities. by 2111, the entire south will be "northern."

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Akhenaton06

OK, I suppose Southwestern wasn't the best term. I don't think adobe houses and the like when I think of west Texas. But it's quite different from the rest of the South culturally and even geographically. I think of "No Country for Old Men" when I think of west Texas (even though the film is supposed to be set in 1980). At any rate, west Texas is also part of that transition zone where Southern influences are pretty light and then get noticeably heavier as you traverse across the former republic. Not having actually done that, that's the impression I get anyway.

For SURE, geographically. In terms of physical topography, there is no part of the Old Confederate states which absolutely LEAST resemble the rest in that regard! I will be the first to agree with that aspect.

But culturally? That gets a bit more complicated. West Texas is, really (at least IMHO...for the bare two-cents it's worth! LOL), the essential South (i.e. Old South, Southeast, for this definition) re-located into a more "western" type environment. And for sure, this lent to forming a very unique and different sub-region. But it was overwhelmingly Southerners who settled west Texas, so while things definitely altered quite a bit, the core remained -- and remains -- Southern, all in all.

So far as the "transition zone" aspect goes, you have a certain good point. BUT...my contention is that in gauging west Texas so far as regional affililation goes (assuming we are talking different parts of states, not the whole of them), it cannot just be done east to west. It must also be looked at on a west to east trek.

I mentioned this -- of sorts -- on another thread. Sure, travelling from Georgia to California, things generally thought of a "classically Southern" will start to gradually fade out a bit the further one gets to the Texas/New Mexico border. On the other hand, travelling west to east? Then once one crosses into Texas, "things Southern" spring up unmistakeably. Southern Baptist Churches, Southern American English being the norm among natives, "Southern type foods served in cafes, etc."

So it has to be looked at from both perspectives!

[MrRedd]

Originally Posted by AlGreen

west texas does not have more in common with mexico nor does south florida have more in common with the caribbean, so those references make no sense



the point is, all regions of the nation need to share some characteristics. even the northeast with its different subregions has too much in common. to say that baltimore/dc has anything in common with most of the south is a huge stretch, to say the least

so okay, HISTORICALLY the dc/maryland area was a part of the south. and if one wants to use the imaginary, man-made mason dixon line (which has absolutely no bearing on the present day) as an indicator of what's north and south, then fine..baltimore and dc are part of the south

That's why i included Baltimore and DC in the south. im tired of having this discussion everytime Baltimore is brought up. There are a few assumptions people have about Baltimore that im tired of clearing up:

1. "Baltimore is the South of the mason dixon line, so its the south"
no comment

2. "Baltimore use to be southern but people from the Northeast moved in, now not anymore".. That statement is FAR from the truth. Baltimore more local than any other city in the NE-corridor, if people consider this southern, they are just crazy.