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Old 11-09-2010, 06:45 AM
 
Location: In the heights
11,474 posts, read 10,309,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eek View Post
all old cars (the dirty ones for example that still run on the J/Z sometimes or the C train) are being retired, tho. most lines are operating the new cars. most of the old cars have been put in the bottom of the ocean to serve as artificial reefs.

there isn't a train car operating right now in nyc that doesn't have air conditioning.

the PATH doesn't carry anywhere near as many passengers daily so of course its cleaner.

the fare hikes are ridiculous, i'll give you that, but in all honesty, we're still paying a lot less than even cities in the U.S., let alone the world. we get far more bang for our buck. that is not justifying the service cuts or the fare hike but it is what it is.

bk doesn't need an expansion as far as lines, IMO. eastern queens does, but again, they are covered by the lirr and many buses.
Cleanliness has as much to do with the passengers as MTA's sanitation department. There needs to be some kind of system to stop people from just throwing or leaving crap everywhere.

There are definitely train cars that cease having air conditioning for some time--also, I'm not sure which stations you have in mind when you say they're air-conditioned. If there is a truly air-conditioned station in the system, it is in the far minority.

As far as expansion goes, eastern queens can certainly do with some lines, but I think the L train is very much in need of an express line or a way to manage much shorter headways. Also, the G not connecting to the JMZ and 2/3/4/5 is pretty ridiculous. That train really should be the lifeblood of downtown Brooklyn.

The real gripes about NYC's system isn't coverage though. It's how behind the times they are with very basic technology and basic reliability.

We're just now getting notifications for when the next train is approaching. It's going to be a good long time before we start using RFID passes instead of swiping magnetic strips (meanwhile, Tokyo's system allows you to just wave your phone over a sensor). We aren't getting air-conditioned stations anytime soon, nor are we getting cell phone service underground (which is probably for the best in NYC, as this isn't a city where most people would be polite enough to not be annoying gits while they gab on the phone).

The train's are pretty reliable in regards to MTA's own metric--but that means nothing when trying to compare with the world's best systems. Service disruptions and changes for the system are incredibly frequent in regards to other systems. Also, signage for service changes and disruptions are poorly done--usually shown within the station after you've already swiped in. Now, 24 hour service, express trains (though some places have integrated commuter rail so well into the system that they serve as super-express systems) and a flat fee (albeit a rather expensive flat fee, so this one's iffy) to anywhere in the system are the big pros that not all the other big contenders have. However, I've known people who've hated the cons of the system so much that they find NYC's system laughably bad. It's pretty subjective.

I know the people who designed the new traincars (interior and the exterior facade). How do you like them?
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:06 AM
eek
 
Location: Queens, NY
3,576 posts, read 4,309,040 times
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iirc, i just heard something last week about cell phone service...
and the MTA still has plans on a card system like tokyo's, regardless if they execute it today or tomorrow. its in the works. tokyo didn't get it overnight and neither will we.
and "meanwhile" ppl in tokyo are sleeping on benches because their system isn't 24 hours.

again, each subway system has its pros and cons.

ppl are acting like other places in the world have everything figured out and executed. cleanliness too. this is not the case. the grass looks greener on the other side but it is not necessarily so.

i have been there and i'm telling you its not as clean or executed as you would think. and there is far more graffiti on trains, in stations, etc. in parts of europe IMHO. delays are indeed an issue in london as they are here.

ppl are complaining, or rather choosing to cherry pick things about the nyc subway system that plague these other systems but they don't want to talk about negatives/cons of the other systems.

i think thats bull.

as far as the designs of the new train cars...IMHO thats a con. europe is far better at choosing designs. ny fell off.

this was the last aesthetically pleasing car to me:



once we retired those, plus the train cars that used to run on the F (they didn't retire these but they no longer run on the F so its basically retired to me ), it was a wrap.

no more colorful circles on the front/sides, no more variety, we haven't had color since the early 90's...well, i guess you could count the trains that used to run on the 7 line back in the early 00's...but other than that, we haven't had any color since the very early 90's with the blue stripe.

its like really?? all silver? again? the same exact design pretty much as the last after you removed the blue stripe? woooow. way to go!

meanwhile, europe and asia have the dopest looking subway cars (IMHO).
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:28 AM
eek
 
Location: Queens, NY
3,576 posts, read 4,309,040 times
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london tube:






etc. etc.

oh yeah...paris metro again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqkT_MOvYbs
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:31 AM
 
Location: In the heights
11,474 posts, read 10,309,225 times
Reputation: 4942
Quote:
Originally Posted by eek View Post
iirc, i just heard something last week about cell phone service...
and the MTA still has plans on a card system like tokyo's, regardless if they execute it today or tomorrow. its in the works. tokyo didn't get it overnight and neither will we.
and "meanwhile" ppl in tokyo are sleeping on benches because their system isn't 24 hours.
Yea, cell phone service is supposedly on the move now as it was three years ago. It's supposed to take about two years for it to be up and running if all goes well. MTA is considering a card system like what a lot of cities have (RFID tags are done in some American cities already such as Seattle) and it's supposed to go into implementation soon. However, Tokyo has had that for a while along with other things like having your cell phone act as a pass. The problem isn't a when--sure, Houston's probably going to get a grew rapid transit system one day. Beijing's is probably going to be huge one day, too. Of course, "when" something is done matter--if the MTA is constantly behind doing catch-up, we end up with outmoded systems while other places are already several steps ahead of us implementing something better.

People are sleeping on benches in tokyo because they're drunk off their asses and it'd be pretty embarrassing to go home. It's not necessarily because their system isn't 24 hours. Though, yes, of course it'd be great if Tokyo's system kept things going 24 hours (while still maintaining and expanding the system well and despite the cost inefficiencies of running it for 24 hours).

Quote:
again, each subway system has its pros and cons.
Which is exactly what everyone else has said. There's no argument here.

Quote:
ppl are acting like other places in the world have everything figured out and executed. cleanliness too. this is not the case. the grass looks greener on the other side but it is not necessarily so.
Well, a lot of us have been on the other side before and still visit fairly frequently. NYC's system is pretty dirty in comparison. It doesn't bother me much, but I understand that some people are skeezed out by it. In some ways, other places in the world do have a lot of stuff figured out and executed, and that's what makes the MTA so exasperating because it's proof that it's all doable. SO WHY DON'T THEY DO IT?

Quote:
i have been there and i'm telling you its not as clean or executed as you would think. and there is far more graffiti on trains, in stations, etc. in parts of europe IMHO. delays are indeed an issue in london as they are here.
Yea, all systems around the world face similar issues. It's really the extent that matters. Delays are going to be everywhere (and with Paris, the looming specter of labor strikes), but NYC's are pretty awful.

Quote:
ppl are complaining, or rather choosing to cherry pick things about the nyc subway system that plague these other systems but they don't want to talk about negatives/cons of the other systems.

i think thats bull.
We can talk about the negatives, of course. All these systems have the same problems that NYC has, but to varying degrees. It makes more sense to talk about NYC's as the basis though because it's the system that more people here are familiar with.

Quote:
as far as the designs of the new train cars...IMHO thats a con. europe is far better at choosing designs. ny fell off.
Yea, a lot of it had to be chosen for more space and lesser possibility of crime. I'm not too keen on the design either.
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:33 AM
 
Location: In the heights
11,474 posts, read 10,309,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eek View Post
paris metro:







clean?
Yea, definitely really clean. Look at the station platforms and how clean those floors are. Much fewer rats running about and interesting smells wafting. I like the laxity with graffiti--I don't think of it as dirtiness at all.
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:36 AM
eek
 
Location: Queens, NY
3,576 posts, read 4,309,040 times
Reputation: 1329
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Yea, definitely really clean. Look at the station platforms and how clean those floors are. Much fewer rats running about and interesting smells wafting. I like the laxity with graffiti--I don't think of it as dirtiness at all.
so is it the station taking you from point A to B or is it the train?

also, since their systems are not 24 hours and they shut down a few hours to clean...whats the deal??

i think more ppl would rather get on a clean train from a dirty station than wait in a clean station for a dirty train. sorry. especially one that they're going to sit on anywhere from 10 min to an hour or so.

(and for the record i don't mind graffiti at all but the general consensus is that graffiti is a problem)
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:42 AM
eek
 
Location: Queens, NY
3,576 posts, read 4,309,040 times
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LOL @ looking at the station floor and commenting on how clean it is when a train full of graffiti on the inside and out pulls up.

are you riding the station to work everyday or the train??

its like ny gets flack because even tho our trains are clean our stations aren't as clean since our system runs 24 hours a day, but these euro cities get praise because their stations are clean even tho their trains have far more graffiti even given the fact that they shut down their systems for hours.

thats EXACTLY what i'm talking about when i say that ppl look at europe differently because its not america. you put nyc in europe and ppl here would praise it.

you put london, paris, etc. in america and ppl would **** on it.
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:43 AM
 
Location: In the heights
11,474 posts, read 10,309,225 times
Reputation: 4942
Quote:
Originally Posted by eek View Post
so is it the station taking you from point A to B or is it the train?

also, since their systems are not 24 hours and they shut down a few hours to clean...whats the deal??

i think more ppl would rather get on a clean train from a dirty station than wait in a clean station for a dirty train. sorry. especially one that they're going to sit on anywhere from 10 min to an hour or so.

(and for the record i don't mind graffiti at all but the general consensus is that graffiti is a problem)
Oh, it's definitely within the trains, too. People spill drinks and then let it ooze about and don't do anything about it. They leave newspapers or bags of half-finished McDonald's. All sorts of wonderful things that I have rarely seen in Western Europe or East Asia. I'm of the habit where if I sit down next to trash on the train, then I pick it up and take it with me when I get off. I am definitely not saying that the MTA's trains are cleaner than those of other systems. Also, I generally wait at the station about as long as I ride in the trains--maybe longer now that I live in Manhattan.

And right, of course not having a 24 hour system makes maintenance easier. That's part of the trade-off we're making for having a 24 hour rail system (which I think is actually a fairly poor trade-off as we can have a system that's much more reliable, cleaner, and probably cost less (which in turn can be either reinvested in the system for other projects or for lower fares)) which I think a night bus rapid transit mirroring the lines can do just as well (since the biggest bus bugaboo of traffic is basically dead during the twilight).

Also, it's not like every or even most of the trains have a bunch of graffiti on them. The ones you chose were the fairly rare highlights. I could only wish that some train authority in a city would authorize public art and openly allow people to do this on all the trains.
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:49 AM
eek
 
Location: Queens, NY
3,576 posts, read 4,309,040 times
Reputation: 1329
from what *I* saw in parts of europe, its pretty common. it depends on the country and city within the country but overall its far more common to catch graffiti on the side of a train in europe than it is anywhere in america, including ny.

i'll give you tokyo as far as having a pretty spotless system...but london, paris, rome, frankfurt, berlin, etc.? na.

graffiti in europe is everywhere. houses, yes houses (in the "country" too), train stations, trains, street signs, highway signs, under/overpasses, etc.

some of the cities might have us beat. europeans are far more proactive at graffiti when it comes to subways than we are. hell, many of them are coming HERE to do it for the sake of nyc being the "mecca."
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:51 AM
 
Location: In the heights
11,474 posts, read 10,309,225 times
Reputation: 4942
Quote:
Originally Posted by eek View Post
LOL @ looking at the station floor and commenting on how clean it is when a train full of graffiti on the inside and out pulls up.

are you riding the station to work everyday or the train??

its like ny gets flack because even tho our trains are clean our stations aren't as clean since our system runs 24 hours a day, but these euro cities get praise because their stations are clean even tho their trains have far more graffiti even given the fact that they shut down their systems for hours.

thats EXACTLY what i'm talking about when i say that ppl look at europe differently because its not america. you put nyc in europe and ppl here would praise it.

you put london, paris, etc. in america and ppl would **** on it.
People litter in the trains, too, not just in the stations--and more so than in the trains of London and Paris.

Your latter point is interesting though because it ties in with what we're essentially both saying--people in the US, in most major cities, screw stuff up. It's not completely the MTA's fault (though not running 24 hour rail service would help them), but also the fault of the passengers. If NYC's architecture and infrastructure were rebuilt completely in Japan and inhabited by these new New Yorkers, then no, there wouldn't be nearly as big of a mess and people would probably get up in arms about how unreliable the system is. Their twilight hour version of the MTA would probably decide it's not very efficient to run a 24 hour system and cut that out.
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