Is Baltimore a northester city like Philly or a southern city like Atlanta (market, statistics)

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

So on continuously developed Urbanized area:

Jacksonville .9 million
Atlanta 4.9 million
Baltimore 6.2 Million (part of a continuously urbanized space)

Also for reference the UA of Atlanta covers 5,083 sq miles and the combined Baltimore/DC UA continuously developed covers 4,734 sq miles with 27% more population but yes Baltimore is closer to Jacksonville Maybe Cleveland or Denver or Seattle, not Jacksonville

I understand what you are trying to say here, but Baltimore is not a part of a continuously urbanized space containing 6.2 million people.

The Baltimore continuously urbanized area has a little over 2 million people, compared to Atlanta's continuously urbanized area population of about 4.1 million.

Not sure where the 6.2 million number came from, but DC and Baltimore's UA is in way shape of form continuously developed at a level for them to be combined into one yet. There respective metros as a whole are though, which is why they are combined into a CSA.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by Ghost of Blasphamany

No you missed my point, Stockton was a well regarded professor and he distinguished the difference among 4 eras of development. That waronxmas poster is wrong including Chicago, Detroit, Minneapolis into the sunbelt generation.
First Era was mobility by foot traffic, narrow streets and foot trails, Boston, Philly, NY, Charleston, New Orleans, Pittsburgh grew around this development
Second Era was the streetcar system where it become dominant in Midwestern cities, it meant commonality that these cities were more spaced than first era cities. Chicago, Detroit, Minny, Cleveland grew up around this form of development which is why Midwestern cities do not characteristically resemble either sunbelt or compact NE cities.
Third Era was intercity roads where cities became even more spaced out and larger in area, cities like L.A, HOU, ATL, Dallas, came out of the result.
Fourth Era was the freeways, where new boomers are about as spaced out and low density as possible, OKC, Jacksonville, ABQ, S.D are examples of this development

Here's the funny thing about Los Angeles, Houston and Atlanta. Their central cities where designed around the streetcar:

LA's Streetcar system


Atlanta Streetcar system


Their suburbs, for the most part, weren't.

And to think that Detroit didn't develop around the automobile....sure, they developed around streetcar, but they were the first city to chuck public transportation whole sale and move completely to a car based society. Detroit literally birthed the Sunbelt.

[Spade]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

They were posted directly in response who literally said that "Downtown Atlanta" (both Downtown and Midtown) isn't urban, which is crazy thing to say.

Ahh I see. I just saw the pictures and thought people used that to make a point. Didn't see the comments.

I'll give you that Baltimore has more classically urban hoods, but not the notion that the only thing urban about Atlanta is Downtown. Especially considering suburban is a function, not a look. I think if people really step back and look at it, they will truly understand this. For instance, it isn't uncommon to find block after block of neighborhoods in Baltimore that contain only rowhouses, ie completely residential. Likewise, it is not uncommon to find neighborhoods in Atlanta that contain block after block of shotgun houses, or craftsmen or row houses (we kind of like to skip about). The big difference being that you might occasionally encounter a tiny yard (gasp) or a bunch of trees (double gasp). This doesn't mean they are suburban as they function as urban neighborhoods. I can't speak for Houston, but go to any random neighborhood on the South or East sides of Atlanta proper and tell the kids hanging out on the corner they live in the suburbs. Then report back what they said after they stopped laughing at you.

See this is the problem though. Saying that they live in area that is suburban does not mean they live in the suburbs. It means they live in a area that is designed in a suburban format or suburban function. This exists in every city including New York. Like I said, I know there are urban pockets outside of downtown in Atlanta. The density, lack of easy pedestrian sidewalks, big box stores, and more is what you will see in the majority of Atlanta outside of downtown. This is the exact opposite of what you will get in Baltimore. Baltimore offers a far more consistent urban format and urban experience to urbanists than Atlanta.

[Ghost of Blasphamany]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

Here's the funny thing about Los Angeles, Houston and Atlanta. Their central cities where designed around the streetcar:
LA's Streetcar system
Atlanta Streetcar system
There suburbs, for the most part, weren't.

And to think that Detroit didn't develop around the automobile....sure, they developed around streetcar, but they were the first city to chuck public transportation whole sale and move completely to a car based society. Detroit literally birthed the Sunbelt.

Here is the catch, L.A, ATL, HOU mostly abandoned their streetcar system, Chicago and the likes did not; conceptually Chicago upgraded mass transit to efficiency which is why it is the poster child of that generation and era. It is no knock on cities like L.A, ATL, HOU, I like ATL and HOU, hate L.A though, but can one really say that they characteristically took form of streetcar age or road age? Pick one of those, as I recall Chicago updated their system to efficiently handle its scene whereas L.A, HOU, ATL mostly began to abandon their streetcar systems to develop roads. You make a fair point about Detroit though, GM and the Big 3 birthed the sunbelt have you seen futurama?

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by Spade

See this is the problem though. Saying that they live in area that is suburban does not mean they live in the suburbs. It means they live in a area that is designed in a suburban format or suburban function. This exists in every city including New York. Like I said, I know there are urban pockets outside of downtown in Atlanta. The density, lack of easy pedestrian sidewalks, big box stores, and more is what you will see in the majority of Atlanta outside of downtown.

No, it isn't. I'm not trying to make it seem as if you can't find that in Atlanta, but it is far from reality to say most of the city proper is like that. That label can only be really applied to residential areas of Buckhead (which only contains one fifth of the city's population mind you) and on the far reaches of the city close to the burbs (where you expect to find in most cities). The vast majority of the residents of the city proper do not have that experience.

[Spade]

Originally Posted by Ghost of Blasphamany

No you missed my point, Stockton was a well regarded professor and he distinguished the difference among 4 eras of development. That waronxmas poster is wrong including Chicago, Detroit, Minneapolis into the sunbelt generation.
First Era was mobility by foot traffic, narrow streets and foot trails, Boston, Philly, NY, Charleston, New Orleans, Pittsburgh grew around this development
Second Era was the streetcar system where it become dominant in Midwestern cities, it meant commonality that these cities were more spaced than first era cities. Chicago, Detroit, Minny, Cleveland grew up around this form of development which is why Midwestern cities do not characteristically resemble either sunbelt or compact NE cities.
Third Era was intercity roads where cities became even more spaced out and larger in area, cities like L.A, HOU, ATL, Dallas, came out of the result.
Fourth Era was the freeways, where new boomers are about as spaced out and low density as possible, OKC, Jacksonville, ABQ, S.D are examples of this development

this is a proven conceptual design theorem for how these cities developed, it is not the nature of HOU and ATL to be suburban but it is characteristics that show suburban traits mixed with urban traits. Stockton developed his theorem for city development pre-WWII

Hmmm..Interesting. Ok. I can see get with this.

[Spade]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

No, it isn't. I'm not trying to make it seem as if you can't find that in Atlanta, but it is far from reality to say most of the city proper is like that. That label can only be really applied to residential areas of Buckhead (which only contains one fifth of the city's population mind you) and on the far reaches of the city close to the burbs (where you expect to find in most cities). The vast majority of the residents of the city proper do not have that experience.

Ok that's fine. But I will still say that the vast majority of the residents of Atlanta still do not get that type of urban experience that exists in Baltimore. That does not mean that Atlanta lacks urbanity, btw.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by Ghost of Blasphamany

Here is the catch, L.A, ATL, HOU mostly abandoned their streetcar system, Chicago and the likes did not; conceptually Chicago upgraded mass transit to efficiency which is why it is the poster child of that generation and era. It is no knock on cities like L.A, ATL, HOU, I like ATL and HOU, hate L.A though, but can one really say that they characteristically took form of streetcar age or road age? Pick one of those, as I recall Chicago updated their system to efficiently handle its scene whereas L.A, HOU, ATL mostly began to abandon their streetcar systems to develop roads. You make a fair point about Detroit though

I get what you are saying...except that it's not true in Atlanta's case as we replaced our streetcars with a subway.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by Spade

Ok that's fine. But I will still say that the vast majority of the residents of Atlanta still do not get that type of urban experience that exists in Baltimore. That does not mean that Atlanta lacks urbanity, btw.

Oh, I totally agree that the urban experience one gets in the City of Atlanta is much different than the urban experience than one gets in the City of Baltimore. I just have a big problem with people thinking that in neighborhoods outside Downtown Atlanta your only option is big box retail, car dependency (residents outside Downtown and Midtown Atlanta on southside and eastside are more likely not to own a car and use public transportation exlusively), and generally equal living experience to that of someone who lives in the suburbs. That is far from reality and based on people assuming they know what it's like when in reality they don't. But hey, that's what messages boards are for, right? To ask questions from people who actually live in a place and not just guess. Wait, that last sentence would probably cause the city-data servers to crash...

[Spade]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

I get what you are saying...except that it's not true in Atlanta's case as we replaced our streetcars with a subway.

Well it's not true in most cases for all the cities then because Dallas and Houston replaced it with light rail and you can make an argument that Houston's system is nothing more than a 21st century version of a streetcar. Miami, which falls into the third era even though it's very dense, also replaced it's streetcars with an Elevated rail. Neither city did it at the level of Chicago though and for good reason. Chicago was simply much bigger than than Sunbelt cities.