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Can you try to stay on topic? I have no clue why you two keep talking about how many murders The Bronx has had in the first quarter of 2013 in a thread about Seattle and Philadelphia, but it all comes off as very incoherent.
I have no clue which "you two" you are talking about. This was my first post in this thread and I was just reacting to the moronic cherry-picking point. Is that okay with you or should I seek your permission next time?
I have no clue which "you two" you are talking about. This was my first post in this thread and I was just reacting to the moronic cherry-picking point. Is that okay with you or should I seek your permission next time?
Yeah, that "cherrypicking" point didn't make any sense to me either. But I suppose "cherrypicking" usually means "I don't like the evidence."
The fact that the entire city of Philadelphia--with its gentrifying, gentrified and wealthy areas and all--has clocked more murders than the Bronx is a problem.
Yeah, that "cherrypicking" point didn't make any sense to me either. But I suppose "cherrypicking" usually means "I don't like the evidence."
The fact that the entire city of Philadelphia--with its gentrifying, gentrified and wealthy areas and all--has clocked more murders than the Bronx is a problem.
Yes and no. While I agree that Philadelphia certainly needs to do more to reduce crime, reduce poverty, spur job growth, clean up slum lands and provide better public education, Philadelphia doesn't have the same benefit as the Bronx, which is in the same municipality as NYC and in turn Manhattan with all it's wealth. That is extra tax paying dollars for policing and education. It is a well known fact that NYC is a police state, they are everywhere in that city. Philadelphia is only beginning to grow their police for and are still having problems doing so. Philadelphia also does not have the large wealthy tax base that Manhattan provides since the majority of Philadelphia's wealth is in the suburbs. Lastly, NYC has had many benefits of being the largest city in the country, the fashion, entertainment, financial, etc. etc. capital of this country as well. NYC has many benefits that Philadelphia does not. Let's not compare the two, because it really is not fair. No city in the US can be compared to NYC let alone Philadelphia... I would expect you of all people to know this. While Philadelphia has seen a drop in both homicides and overall crime, and that should be avoided, NYC has gone from a stunning number of 2,500 murders a year to just over 400 murders a year in ~20 years. Let's not forget where NYC can from, and it is impressive, and we can only hope that Philadelphia continues in that direction... but seriously, this is getting a little ridiculous now... I hate this saying but you guys really are comparing apples and oranges.
I have no clue which "you two" you are talking about. This was my first post in this thread and I was just reacting to the moronic cherry-picking point. Is that okay with you or should I seek your permission next time?
It is "cherry-picking" when you are trying to compare any area of New York City (which had it's lowest murder totals in the history of NYPD record keeping just last year in 2012 and continues to see reduction in crime) to other cities. NYC is now an anomaly and is one of the safest, if not the safest major city in the country (I won't get into the current investigation about NYPD under-reported crime stats) But as was mentioned earlier, it is also pretty much a police state and the federal poverty rate is a MAJOR concern, especially in a city as expensive as NYC. Pick your poison.
Philadelphia so far this year is seeing it's lowest murder rate in decades and it doesn't make much sense to try to diminish it's progress by comparing it to New York.
Yes and no. While I agree that Philadelphia certainly needs to do more to reduce crime, reduce poverty, spur job growth, clean up slum lands and provide better public education, Philadelphia doesn't have the same benefit as the Bronx, which is in the same municipality as NYC and in turn Manhattan with all it's wealth. That is extra tax paying dollars for policing and education. It is a well known fact that NYC is a police state, they are everywhere in that city. Philadelphia is only beginning to grow their police for and are still having problems doing so. Philadelphia also does not have the large wealthy tax base that Manhattan provides since the majority of Philadelphia's wealth is in the suburbs. Lastly, NYC has had many benefits of being the largest city in the country, the fashion, entertainment, financial, etc. etc. capital of this country as well. NYC has many benefits that Philadelphia does not. Let's not compare the two, because it really is not fair. No city in the US can be compared to NYC let alone Philadelphia... I would expect you of all people to know this. While Philadelphia has seen a drop in both homicides and overall crime, and that should be avoided, NYC has gone from a stunning number of 2,500 murders a year to just over 400 murders a year in ~20 years. Let's not forget where NYC can from, and it is impressive, and we can only hope that Philadelphia continues in that direction... but seriously, this is getting a little ridiculous now... I hate this saying but you guys really are comparing apples and oranges.
Actually, according to this source, Philadelphia has more police officers per capita than New York City. New York has more full-time law enforcement employees on a per capita basis, which according to the NYPD's website includes such positions as attorney, criminalist, administrative aide, communications technician, psychologist, school safety agent, and traffic enforecment agent. But I imagine that the NYPD also devotes significantly more resources to counter-terrorism efforts than the Philadelphia PD, which is a likely explanation for the larger per capita number. Nonetheless, I don't see how stepping up security around Wall Street and Midtown translates into a lower number of homicides in the Bronx. And the Bronx is not exactly known for schools with sterling academic reputations that open up worlds of opportunity for most of its low-income residents.
It is "cherry-picking" when you are trying to compare any area of New York City (which had it's lowest murder totals in the history of the city just last year in 2012 and continues to see reduction in crime) to other cities. NYC is now an anomaly and is one of the safest, if not the safest major city in the country. But as was mentioned earlier, it is also pretty much a police state and the federal poverty rate is a MAJOR concern, especially in a city as expensive as NYC. Pick your poison.
But Philly is technically even more of a police state than NYC. It has more police officers per capita than New York.
But Philly is technically even more of a police state than NYC. It has more police officers per capita than New York.
You know as well as I know that the NYPD is much, much more of a presence in New York than the PPD is in Philly. There is no comparison. The NYPD is armed and now trained like a national army.
Parts of North Philly and West Philly as well as Center City have tons of Cops, but the rest of the city? Not so much. Philly seems to have more desk jobs than officers out in the neighborhoods (except The Badlands, etc). And the tiny rowhome blocks versus large blocks of apartments make it harder for Philly cops to monitor. I go days without seeing police in my neighborhood in Northwest Philly and I am perfectly fine with that . Philly is working on reducing crime and it appears to be coming to frutition but there is much work to be done and we should never sacrifice civil liberties for the illusion of safety.
Also, Philly doesn't have cameras and surveillance everywhere (yet) and it is still illegal to stop and frisk and search without a warrant. We can purchase large sodas and legally carry too.
You know as well as I know that the NYPD is much, much more of a presence in New York than the PPD is in Philly. There is no comparison. The NYPD is armed and now trained like a national army. Parts of North Philly and West Philly as well as Center City have tons of Cops, but the rest of the city? Not so much. I go days without seeing police in my neighborhood in Northwest Philly and I am perfectly fine with that .
Manhattan has a ridiculous police presence. And again, I've always presented evidence showing that Philadelphia has more police officers on a per capita basis than NYC. A lack of a sufficient number of officers is not a reason for the higher murder rate.
And the homicide and narcotics units of nearly all police departments focus their energies on a limited number of areas. That's not unique to Philadelphia. There's no reason to have police cars cruising up and down Carpenter Lane to watch out for people illegally burning leaves in their front yards or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a
Also, Philly doesn't have cameras and surveillance everywhere (yet) and it is still illegal to stop and frisk and search without a warrant. We can purchase large sodas and legally carry too.
Philadelphia has nearly twice as many police surveillance cameras as Washington, DC, and they are concentrated primarily in North Philly. Like DC's cameras, they have picked up very little in the way of drug dealing or violent crime (the North Capitol Street shootings notwithstanding).
There's an easy way to avoid surveillance cameras. You just sell drugs out of a house (aka "the trap").
And it's not illegal to stop and frisk without a warrant anywhere in the United States. An officer only needs "articulable facts" that constitute reasonable suspicion that the suspect may have committed a crime, is about to commit a crime, or is armed and dangerous. It's called a "Terry Stop." If you've ever read a police report, it reads like this:
"Officer Menendez saw the suspect on the corner of Broad and Venango at approximately 11:38 p.m. on April 3, 2013. Officer Menendez approached the suspect and asked if he was in the possession of illegal contraband. The suspect avoided eye contact with Officer Menendez and stuffed his hands into his pockets. These movements gave Officer Menendez reason to believe that the suspect was carrying a weapon. Officer Menendez feared for his safety at that point. Officer Menendez then conducted a search of the suspect and discovered 17 bags of marijuana strapped to his arms and legs underneath his clothing. The contraband was removed and placed within the custody of Officer Williams of Narcotics. The suspect was read his Miranda rights."
Usually the cop is lying, but they're taught to write reports in such a way as to skirt any possible Fourth Amendment problems.
Manhattan has a ridiculous police presence. And again, I've always presented evidence showing that Philadelphia has more police officers on a per capita basis than NYC. A lack of a sufficient number of officers is not a reason for the higher murder rate.
Philadelphia has nearly twice as many police surveillance cameras as Washington, DC, and they are concentrated primarily in North Philly. Like DC's cameras, they have picked up very little in the way of drug dealing or violent crime (the North Capitol Street shootings notwithstanding).
There's an easy way to avoid surveillance cameras. You just sell drugs out of a house (aka "the trap").
I am not a fan of Philly's police cameras but a couple hundred across the city is nothing compared to Orwellian New York:
"In 2005, the New York Civil Liberties Union conducted the most intense camera count (PDF), but focused mainly on Lower Manhattan. The group counted 4,176 cameras below 14th Street, an area about one-sixth the size of the island. That's up 443 percent from 1998, when the group conducted its first study. Getting off the streets won't help New Yorkers escape Big Brother's gaze. There are 4,313 cameras in the subway system"
NYC is also the testing ground for this 1984'ish future
Sacrificing liberty for safety gives a person neither...or something like that.
But the under-reported crime stat investigation aside, it is commendable that NYC has reduced it's crime rate so much. That said, Philadelphia has historically ALWAYS had a lower crime rate than NYC except the past 10-20 years. Gloating over these things doesn't make sense to me, especially when crime is being reduced everywhere.
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. Philly is working on reducing crime and it appears to be coming to frutition but there is much work to be done and we should never sacrifice civil liberties for the illusion of safety.
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