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Old 02-15-2012, 09:52 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,252 posts, read 2,464,468 times
Reputation: 1555

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Quote:
Originally Posted by soug View Post
Well, "suburban" can refer to two things. It can mean either an area's relationship in comparison to its surroundings, or a style of urban development. Granted, I don't know Queens that well (the only parts of the borough I know pretty well are Maspeth and Jackson Heights), but as far as the first meaning goes, Queens definitely fits the definition of a suburb (for Manhattan), although I have no doubt it has many strong commercial centers of its own.

As far as the second meaning goes, a significant portion of Queens, at least that I have seen, consists of single family homes on small lots, which also fits the definition of suburban in my opinion. Granted, it may not be the cookie-cutter sprawl we think of when we hear the word "suburb," but it is still leans more towards suburban on an urban-suburban-rural continuum.

So overall, no I don't really see too much of a conflict. The argument for the first definition is stronger than for the second, but both are valid. When I originally said I see no conflict with your statement, I was primarily referring to the first argument. A city can have suburban qualities, even if that seems counter-intuitive.
As LINative has pointed out, you seem to be confusing suburban with residential. They are not the same. If suburban were to be defined in comparison to its surroundings, as you suggest, then every single city in the country would be "mostly suburban". Philadelphia would be one giant suburb (for Center City). Brooklyn also (for Manhattan). Heck even the Upper West Side and Greenwich Village could be considered suburbs under that definition (for Midtown and Downtown Manhattan).

The word "suburban" usually implies low population density and mostly (if not exclusively) single family homes. That does not mean that a suburb can not be urban in nature. For example, Rosslyn, VA might be considered a suburb of DC even though it consists mostly of high rises. But while it's technically a "suburb" (in a sense that it serves as a bedroom community for DC) it's not actually suburban in nature. In fact it is highly urban.

An area of 21k/sq mile -- which is a very high population density (especially by North American standards) -- can not be "mostly suburban" unless it has a huge variation in density -- i.e., a small area of hyper-density and a large area of very low density, which is a very rare phenomenon. That's not Queens. It does have some SFH areas that could be described as suburban in nature -- Forest Hills Gardens, Whitestone, Douglaston and a few others -- but I am guesstimating they are no more than 20% of the borough. The rest is intensely urban.
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:26 AM
 
1,953 posts, read 3,150,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
As LINative has pointed out, you seem to be confusing suburban with residential. They are not the same. If suburban were to be defined in comparison to its surroundings, as you suggest, then every single city in the country would be "mostly suburban". Philadelphia would be one giant suburb (for Center City). Brooklyn also (for Manhattan). Heck even the Upper West Side and Greenwich Village could be considered suburbs under that definition (for Midtown and Downtown Manhattan).

The word "suburban" usually implies low population density and mostly (if not exclusively) single family homes. That does not mean that a suburb can not be urban in nature. For example, Rosslyn, VA might be considered a suburb of DC even though it consists mostly of high rises. But while it's technically a "suburb" (in a sense that it serves as a bedroom community for DC) it's not actually suburban in nature. In fact it is highly urban.

An area of 21k/sq mile -- which is a very high population density (especially by North American standards) -- can not be "mostly suburban" unless it has a huge variation in density -- i.e., a small area of hyper-density and a large area of very low density, which is a very rare phenomenon. That's not Queens. It does have some SFH areas that could be described as suburban in nature -- Forest Hills Gardens, Whitestone, Douglaston and a few others -- but I am guesstimating they are no more than 20% of the borough. The rest is intensely urban.
Yeah I pretty much agree with you, I guess "suburban" vs "residential" just comes down to semantics. The point I was trying to make was basically what you just said, and I'll take your word on the 20% figure, I'm sure it's pretty accurate.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:58 PM
 
Location: North Bergen,NJ
576 posts, read 1,377,495 times
Reputation: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by openheads View Post
Ask someone on Westside Ave, Ocean Ave, Communipaw Ave if they are the 6th borough of anything. Their responses will tell you everything you need to know.
Exactly, if downtown JC degentrified I would not loose a minute of sleep. In fact I'd sleep better. Keep you Manhattan wannabees in NYC leave JC alone.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
8,702 posts, read 11,402,936 times
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Jersey City! Without a doubt
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:39 PM
bn1
 
88 posts, read 113,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jobber23 View Post
It's not a definition, it's fact. Suburbs are boring and not really happening.
People move to the suburbs not enjoy the city life but to escape it.

The fact is that New Jersey had one real city and it abandonded it favoring endless suburb over city life.
Interesting thread. I'ved lived in both NJ and NYC (Queens and Manhattan). If arbitrary politically drawn state/city lines were thrown out, I'd say eastern Bergen and Hudson counties serve to act as 6th boroughs by virtue of surrounding Manhattan as satellites. Queens, Brooklyn, and Bronx all have their cultural trademarks but no one in the world thinks of NYC without picturing Manhattan first and foremost. The honest truth is the other boroughs have always and always will be thought of surrounding Manhattan. That's the part that eastern Bergen and Hudson has in common. And frankly, Fort Lee looks as different from Jackson Heights as Elmhurst looks from Cobble Hill. Fort Lee would be more a neighborhood of this imaginary borough rather than its own "city". Likewise, Newark would be considered a "neighborhood" rather than a "city" - and we all know there are neighborhoods in Bx that aren't too far from what Newark looks like.

On the other hand, KONY and Jobber do touch on the different mentality - although they're exaggerating by a lot and it sounds like they know just as much about Jersey as I do about Staten Island (not much). There is more car driving mentality in Jersey. Even if their destination is half mile away, Jerseyans often opt to drive. Jerseyans are more associated with playing in backyards instead of on the stoop, or playing stickball, or in city parks. There are parts of Jersey where life is like this - but its in pockets. I imagine Staten Island is like this too. And truth is, enough of Queens is like this as well.

At the end of the day, I find that people from Manhattan don't usually have the NJ-hater mentality as some here do. To them (and myself when I lived there), Jersey isn't all that different from Queens. This desire to put Jersey in its place is something that exists with a few stubborn residents of the outer boroughs who feel like they're in a better place when it's really pretty much the same *****. You grow up near Manhattan, at some point in your life you probably work in Manhattan or maybe even live there for a bit, then end up moving back out to somewhere near Manhattan when you have kids. Culturally, KRS-1 came from Bronx and Frank Sinatra came from NJ. Guess what - both are culturally associated with NYC. And no one second guesses Frank Sinatra's "New York City-ness" just because he's from Jersey.
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:05 PM
 
725 posts, read 967,456 times
Reputation: 272
Whoever mentioned Philadelphia needs to be slapped with a bat. New York doesn't even cross our mind. If a native Philadelphian heard that, OH BOY, be prepare to get beat up. We philadelphias are very protective of our city, and that's why we beat up other teams fans (I am in no way proud of that). We are a independent city, and does everything on its own, and is a old, proud northeastern city.
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:17 PM
 
87 posts, read 184,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toure View Post
Whoever mentioned Philadelphia needs to be slapped with a bat. New York doesn't even cross our mind. If a native Philadelphian heard that, OH BOY, be prepare to get beat up. We philadelphias are very protective of our city, and that's why we beat up other teams fans (I am in no way proud of that). We are a independent city, and does everything on its own, and is a old, proud northeastern city.
While there are many older Philadelphians who probably haven't visited New York City even once in the last 25 years, I don't agree that New York never crosses the minds of younger Philadelphians, considering that there are long lines of mostly young people lined up everyday to take discount buses to NYC.

A certain number of people commute everyday from Philadelphia to NYC, either by bus, train, or car.

Also, newspapers like the New York Post and New York Daily News are sold at grocery stores and convenience stores throughout Philadelphia.

Last edited by The Ancient Oracle; 04-17-2013 at 02:30 PM..
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:52 PM
 
725 posts, read 967,456 times
Reputation: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ancient Oracle View Post
While there are many older Philadelphians who probably haven't visited New York City even once in the last 25 years, I don't agree that New York never crosses the minds of younger Philadelphians, considering that there are long lines of mostly young people lined up everyday to take discount buses to NYC.

A certain number of people commute everyday from Philadelphia to NYC, either by bus, train, or car.

Also, newspapers like the New York Post and New York Daily News are sold at grocery stores and convenience stores throughout Philadelphia.
Don't say what you think, you don't think like a Philadelphian. I do. And New York newspapers are NOT sold throughout our city. Philadelphians YOUNG and old are provincial, remember that this is just city data, the average person does not think about cities.

I'll repeat: The way Philadelphians think about L.A is the same for NYC. We will think "Cool big city, but not Bette then ours!". In all honesty we think we have the best city in the world, only newbies, or yuppies. I know this isn't true tho being a native, I know we are bad in many areas and good and new ones.
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:57 PM
 
Location: London, U.K.
886 posts, read 1,296,144 times
Reputation: 812
6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 = Miami, Atlanta, Philly, Chicago, L.A., and D.C.

Really the New York, NY-NJ-CT-PA-DE-FL-GA-IL-IN-WI-CA-DC-MD-VA-WV CSA.

Last edited by BLAXTOR; 04-17-2013 at 03:10 PM..
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Old 04-17-2013, 04:14 PM
 
725 posts, read 967,456 times
Reputation: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAXTOR View Post
6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 = Miami, Atlanta, Philly, Chicago, L.A., and D.C.

Really the New York, NY-NJ-CT-PA-DE-FL-GA-IL-IN-WI-CA-DC-MD-VA-WV CSA.
HA! That's what New Yorkers like to think!
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