Bay Area VS Boston VS Philadelphia (Florida, best, rates, comparison)

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

Well, the mass transit investment was over a course of three and a half decades and is still continuing. I was thinking if these other cities all had such dedicated and steady transit investment how much better they'd be by now (not just more coverage, but much more frequent service and a good use of interlining). It seems a bit absurd how little investment in transit these fairly dense cities have had.

On the METRO absolutely I was responding more wholistically

Well METRO continued to get funded while most others did not; SEPTA for example never kept up with the times on the whole nor did investment go into newer job centers like KOP with 20 million sq ft of office space basically has no good PT to speak of

So many missed opportunities

For Philly specifically I often wonder if the NJ agencies had more influence if the PT would not have been better

Also DC got many more funds on the relative scale; now even funding growth on other investments (silver line from Dulles tolls etc.)

BART is actully more similar to METRO in the kind of hybrid from but overall less comprehensive. Boston and Philly rely on much older technologies.

For Philly a Metro like service into Jersey, Wilmington DE, Media, KO, Conshy, Bucks and in to Trenton etc would have done great things for development

But in the end all would have significantly benefitted but hey not all cities can be the capital

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

On the METRO absolutely I was responding more wholistically

Well METRO continued to get funded while most others did not; SEPTA for example never kept up with the times on the whole nor did investment go into newer job centers like KOP with 20 million sq ft of office space basically has no good PT to speak of

So many missed opportunities

For Philly specifically I often wonder if the NJ agencies had more influence if the PT would not have been better

Also DC got many more funds on the relative scale; now even funding growth on other investments (silver line from Dulles tolls etc.)

BART is actully more similar to METRO in the kind of hybrid from but overall less comprehensive. Boston and Philly rely on much older technologies.

For Philly a Metro like service into Jersey, Wilmington DE, Media, KO, Conshy, Bucks and in to Trenton etc would have done great things for development

But in the end all would have significantly benefitted but hey not all cities can be the capital

I remember non-capital cities in Germany and Spain of equivalent or even much smaller size having far bette/more extensive transit systems than these three US cities. For capital cities, the European ones all seem to have much better systems (including those in relatively impoverished central/eastern europe) while having something like half to a quarter of the metro populations of these cities. Same goes with Canadian cities. It is incredibly sad and just a little bit stupid.

Well, that was neither here nor there. Sorry. I just wanted to vent, because it seems so obvious that these cities could be so much more but incredibly poor planning and lack of foresight will keep things as they are.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

I remember non-capital cities in Germany and Spain of equivalent or even much smaller size having far bette/more extensive transit systems than these three US cities. For capital cities, the European ones all seem to have much better systems (including those in relatively impoverished central/eastern europe) while having something like half to a quarter of the metro populations of these cities. Same goes with Canadian cities. It is incredibly sad and just a little bit stupid.

Well, that was neither here nor there. Sorry. I just wanted to vent, because it seems so obvious that these cities could be so much more but incredibly poor planning and lack of foresight will keep things as they are.

Think we are in agreement. Is sad in that even the better transit are pretty poor on the global perspective

Even the current infrastructure goes vastly underutilized but a whole other topic

[slo1318]

^ I think part of it is those cities are just older. They were developed pre-automobile, you arent going to bring a freeway into those older cities and mass transit is just further developed than in the United States. Its almost as if our cities are still in their teen years.

[Fastphilly]

San Francisco has a huge lack of freeway infrastructure. Only one though freeway through the city and that is it. The major North/South Highway (US 101) is surface streets (Van Ness and Lombard) through about half the city.

[buck wilder]

You can say that about the Bay Area for sure, although expansion of BART to San Jose is a very big deal and happening. I never felt Boston lacked in terms of mass transit, in fact I feel it is one of the nation's best systems. The Big Dig also outclasses anything done in D.C. in terms of highways.

Philadelphia is a bit more of an enigma, SEPTA just loves diesel buses and hates trolleys so even though the infrastructure is there it goes unused. Regional rail is used to maintain de-facto segregation - how else to explain that the Broad St. subway doesn't extend all the way to the airport, justa couple miles from where it currently terminates, which forced travelers to use SEPTA regional rail which takes the long route and costs much more. Still it's easy enough to get around Philly.

D.C. has it easy, they don't have to pay for their own stuff.

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

Well, the mass transit investment was over a course of three and a half decades and is still continuing. I was thinking if these other cities all had such dedicated and steady transit investment how much better they'd be by now (not just more coverage, but much more frequent service and a good use of interlining). It seems a bit absurd how little investment in transit these fairly dense cities have had.

[Slyman11]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

AC take it or leave it honestly; that isnt what adds GDP though a fair number of the County to the west of thE Pine Barrens is 20 minutes into Philly - places like Hammonton etc.

Trenton and Mercer are far closer on the whole and Allentown has its pros and cons but is also pretty close and 50 Billion in GDP

The core of the Bay with SF/Oak/SJ is about 5-6 million the remiander is pretty far afield actually in many ways. Look I quite like the Bay and on the whole is more cohesive and also seprated from other places so has a larger regional draw in many ways. Point was you dismissed 100 Billion in very close proximity to Philly and did it very dismissively; that is pretty significant. AC and Atlantic county is by far the laggard on this metric. The wealth in the Philly are is South/West and North not East toward AC; what AC and Atlantic and Ocen and Cape May counties have are some great beaches and towns AC withstanding outside of the entertainment options. The Revel is actually a nice addition in this regard.

Revel - Home

These metrics are what they are but they like most metrics will have some flaws and honestly I do believe Philly is shortchanged and 100 Billion (not even mentioning the very close NYC MSA employment centers all also in range. The good part is there probably as many if not more job options in the Phily area in terms what is within reasonable commuting range ragardless of silly lines on maps; from that perspective it has many positive to go along with one o the great cities in the country

And on your size comments; will need to verify but believe that Mercer and Allentown added to the Philly CSA is still smaller than DC and Baltimore as one and believe the Bay (not positive) and pretty sure is msaller than the Boston CSA in the relative sense. The phlly CSA and MSA are small in the comparison to others land area wise quite honestly

Point is you took a one liner and tried to make this into a death match, one of which I dont know if I follow. Maybe you're a senior citizen [55 +] and dont understand what 'cool story, bro' means but let me tell you its nothing on the fringes of the extreme your making it out to be.

Sarcasm. Have you heard of it?

Sorry but when you take my words out of context then your just mudslinging your POV

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Slyman11

Point is you took a one liner and tried to make this into a death match, one of which I dont know if I follow. Maybe you're a senior citizen [55 +] and dont understand what 'cool story, bro' means but let me tell you its nothing on the fringes of the extreme your making it out to be.

Sarcasm. Have you heard of it?

Sorry but when you take my words out of context then your just mudslinging your POV

Think it is pretty easy to follow young buck

I know sarcasm extremely well and if my points are ill founded dispute them

While I have been accused of attitude on here it seems that trait is equally shared by you

[Slyman11]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

Think it is pretty easy to follow young buck

I know sarcasm extremely well and if my points are ill founded dispute them

While I have been accused of attitude on here it seems that trait is equally shared by you

I can be a snob and have been one throughout my times in DC, Boston, and Miami but I can also be more calm at times IMO

Well first things first, I DO agree with you in that Philly should be a much larger region. For one the state of Delaware should be compromised within the Philly region just as Rhode Island is to Boston IMO. Another group including Lancaster, Reading, and Allentown need to be thrown into the Philly area because well by themselves they're just exurban podunks but thrown into the Philly region they offer more economic stability for a much larger and superior region to them [Philly]. Atlantic county, well that can stay on its own. Its just an awful place that would drag the Philly region down but if you want it then take it. Its yours and no one else wants to claim it anyhow.

I also say give DC the Maryland county of Howard from Baltimore and give Baltimore the York area of PA. Give Miami Port St. Lucie. That would complete my region wish list if I had to restart and draw my borders.

I dont care for cities, I only care for a metropolis whether its one defined by the U.S. census or one defined by our own logic.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Slyman11

I can be a snob and have been one throughout my times in DC, Boston, and Miami but I can also be more calm at times IMO

Well first things first, I DO agree with you in that Philly should be a much larger region. For one the state of Delaware should be compromised within the Philly region just as Rhode Island is to Boston IMO. Another group including Lancaster, Reading, and Allentown need to be thrown into the Philly area because well by themselves they're just exurban podunks but thrown into the Philly region they offer more economic stability for a much larger and superior region to them [Philly]. Atlantic county, well that can stay on its own. Its just an awful place that would drag the Philly region down but if you want it then take it. Its yours and no one else wants to claim it anyhow.

I also say give DC the Maryland county of Howard from Baltimore and give Baltimore the York area of PA. Give Miami Port St. Lucie. That would complete my region wish list if I had to restart and draw my borders.

I dont care for cities, I only care for a metropolis whether its one defined by the U.S. census or one defined by our own logic.

Fair enough

One point on Atlantic County (well Ocean and Cape May too) they have great beaches and shore towns (AC has some decent casinos and many seedy parts but Margate and Ventnor are not bad) but they are the backyard beach playgorunds for Philly and serve a great purpose in that sense.