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View Poll Results: Which city do you think is better overall?
Cleveland 203 52.59%
Detroit 183 47.41%
Voters: 386. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-14-2018, 10:13 AM
 
20 posts, read 8,884 times
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Originally Posted by aca1 View Post
I do agree with the many people who mention that Detroit is picking up lately. It even kind of seems like the media has quit picking on Detroit lately, and are turning their shock stories more and more to Chicago, which it seems some people would like to be the new Detroit. But a question I would raise, is if it is sustainable. A lot of statistics are flying around, and lists of assets, but Detroit's two original problems were never solved. The automotive industry is still declining, and most of that field's growth is occurring from foreign companies opening new plants in rural-ish areas, especially in the South. Also the race problem really isn't any better. Detroit is still really segregated. And on other websites with different kinds of people, there is a lot of anger about gentrification. Detroit the city's nice areas are still kind of small and isolated. One Ferguson-type riot could undo everything they have worked towards. And that possibility always just one police killing away

Both cities have to deal with population loss. The predictions of the coming decades that I have seen show population loss across a wide swath of the old Northwest area from Pittsburgh to Illinois (at least- those were the areas I was focused on). Many Americans hate cold weather, and the air conditioner may have started a trend that will never be reversed. Both cities were built on industry, and were not that large before. With the downfall of that sector, I don't think either will recover to what they were. That being said, quality can be increased even as quantity decreases.

Currently, I have to put Cleveland ahead. But Detroit is a bigger idea in the minds of Americans. Perhaps this will lead to a greater clustering of dwindling resources of the urban minded people that remain or choose to move to the Great Lakes region.
The trend towards the South and West may partially be weather related, but more-so it's middle class, skilled labor folks chasing jobs after the nations manufacturing core went overseas. It's also easier to be poor (or paycheck to paycheck) in warmer climates.

Old rust belt cities have really had the magnifying glass put to their problems since cities like Boston, NYC, Philly, Seattle, Austin, Dallas, SF, LA, Atlanta, Nashville, etc. have boomed so hard and fast the past 2, 3 or 4 decades. If you remember, most of those places were pretty rough and grimy before that. Lots of cash floating around the financial, tech and media sectors changed all that.

The Midwest boomed like this in the early-to-mid 20th century, populations tripling in 3 or 4 decades time. A city like Chicago was able to better weather the tides by diversifying beyond manufacturing, unlike the Detroit's, Cleveland's, Cincinnati's, Pittsburgh's, etc.

I see it all simply as shifting industries. Sure, LA weather is far nicer than a Detroit winter. But you cannot convince me a Dallas or Atlanta or Nashville summer is. And honestly, living an LA city life is a different beast for a different animal.

Quote:
That being said, quality can be increased even as quantity decreases.
I'd agree, that is possible.
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:11 PM
 
16 posts, read 7,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aca1 View Post
I do agree with the many people who mention that Detroit is picking up lately. It even kind of seems like the media has quit picking on Detroit lately, and are turning their shock stories more and more to Chicago, which it seems some people would like to be the new Detroit. But a question I would raise, is if it is sustainable. A lot of statistics are flying around, and lists of assets, but Detroit's two original problems were never solved. The automotive industry is still declining, and most of that field's growth is occurring from foreign companies opening new plants in rural-ish areas, especially in the South. Also the race problem really isn't any better. Detroit is still really segregated. And on other websites with different kinds of people, there is a lot of anger about gentrification. Detroit the city's nice areas are still kind of small and isolated. One Ferguson-type riot could undo everything they have worked towards. And that possibility always just one police killing away

Both cities have to deal with population loss. The predictions of the coming decades that I have seen show population loss across a wide swath of the old Northwest area from Pittsburgh to Illinois (at least- those were the areas I was focused on). Many Americans hate cold weather, and the air conditioner may have started a trend that will never be reversed. Both cities were built on industry, and were not that large before. With the downfall of that sector, I don't think either will recover to what they were. That being said, quality can be increased even as quantity decreases.

Currently, I have to put Cleveland ahead. But Detroit is a bigger idea in the minds of Americans. Perhaps this will lead to a greater clustering of dwindling resources of the urban minded people that remain or choose to move to the Great Lakes region.

From an economic perspective, there is no doubt that the auto industry still dominates the Detroit region. However if you are looking at the City of Detroit proper, it differs in that most of the jobs associated with the CBD revival are not very auto-centric. If anything, the City of Detroit has become more reliant on jobs related to the home mortgage industry, and less so on automotive. This can be attributed to a name most Clevelanders are familiar with... Dan Gilbert.
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
1,023 posts, read 501,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baynova View Post
The trend towards the South and West may partially be weather related, but more-so it's middle class, skilled labor folks chasing jobs after the nations manufacturing core went overseas. It's also easier to be poor (or paycheck to paycheck) in warmer climates.

Old rust belt cities have really had the magnifying glass put to their problems since cities like Boston, NYC, Philly, Seattle, Austin, Dallas, SF, LA, Atlanta, Nashville, etc. have boomed so hard and fast the past 2, 3 or 4 decades. If you remember, most of those places were pretty rough and grimy before that. Lots of cash floating around the financial, tech and media sectors changed all that.

The Midwest boomed like this in the early-to-mid 20th century, populations tripling in 3 or 4 decades time. A city like Chicago was able to better weather the tides by diversifying beyond manufacturing, unlike the Detroit's, Cleveland's, Cincinnati's, Pittsburgh's, etc.

I see it all simply as shifting industries. Sure, LA weather is far nicer than a Detroit winter. But you cannot convince me a Dallas or Atlanta or Nashville summer is. And honestly, living an LA city life is a different beast for a different animal.



I'd agree, that is possible.
Elaborate on how it's easier to be poor in warmer climates?
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:12 PM
 
8,668 posts, read 8,810,877 times
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Originally Posted by QCongress83216 View Post
Elaborate on how it's easier to be poor in warmer climates?
Heat is not optional, AC is.

But Southrn states have weaker social safety nets so I would think it balances out
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Windsor Ontario
1,455 posts, read 1,215,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carcross View Post
From an economic perspective, there is no doubt that the auto industry still dominates the Detroit region. However if you are looking at the City of Detroit proper, it differs in that most of the jobs associated with the CBD revival are not very auto-centric. If anything, the City of Detroit has become more reliant on jobs related to the home mortgage industry, and less so on automotive. This can be attributed to a name most Clevelanders are familiar with... Dan Gilbert.
Well, over 6000 people work at the GM headquarters in DT alone, plus Ford is also expanding their workforce in Corktown with the purchase and renovation of the old train station, so there’s plenty of white collar auto jobs in Detroit’s CBD! There are also many big plants in the city proper that still employ many thousands of workers! The CBD has grown its non auto related white collar jobs as well though, it’s definitely more diverse and balanced now!
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
1,023 posts, read 501,075 times
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Originally Posted by Baynova View Post
Having just visited Cleveland during the finals (sorry guys ) I can unequivocally state that we were surprised! Your downtown is awesome! East 4th to the Warehouse District and Flats... it's all very walk-able and lively! We ate so good, I think a week long fast is in store.

Lakewood and Ohio City are fun and trendy with lots of great restaurants and bars. Went to the Westside Market and then had lunch at the Great Lakes Brewery where we learned the history of the neighborhood and its revival. Super cool! A nice beach over there too! (edgewater?)

University Circle is pretty amazing too! Unfortunately, we didn't get to visit any of the museums but we did walk around Wade Park - which is gorgeous! Some really gorgeous historic neighborhoods over there!

For an older city that's been through the wringer, it looks like Cleveland HAS rebounded and is moving in the right direction. It's too bad you guys get beat up, it doesn't reflect today's reality from what I saw. If my wife hadn't been born in the east bay with all her family here, I'd seriously consider a move. I love the Great Lakes region and we could afford 3 or 4 times the house in Shaker Heights, Solon, Beachwood or Chagrin Falls - all very attractive to me.

I love Detroit too. The history is undeniable. Visited last year for business and it too is making great headway downtown. But I just don't see it rebounding like Cleveland has. We did see blight in some of Cleveland proper, but nothing much worse than we have in Oakland. Detroit's blight (and just vast empty land) minutes from downtown is still decades from recovering it seems.

Best of all, you guys have zero traffic!!! It was so refreshing! We'll come back even if LeBron leaves!
What were your thoughts about Cleveland before you and your wife's visit? Or, what misconceptions did you have? About LeBron, almost everybody nationally, fans and media, don't want him to stay in Cleveland because they feel Cleveland doesn't deserve nice things or a player of his caliber, and that should only be for cities like NYC, L.A., Chicago, Miami or even SF. I don't know why the media hates the fact that LeBron's most of career has been in Cleveland.
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Old 06-21-2018, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
7,915 posts, read 6,848,399 times
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Originally Posted by QCongress83216 View Post
What were your thoughts about Cleveland before you and your wife's visit? Or, what misconceptions did you have? About LeBron, almost everybody nationally, fans and media, don't want him to stay in Cleveland because they feel Cleveland doesn't deserve nice things or a player of his caliber, and that should only be for cities like NYC, L.A., Chicago, Miami or even SF. I don't know why the media hates the fact that LeBron's most of career has been in Cleveland.
I don't think the Lebron bit is entirely accurate. A lot of people nationally thought it was cool Lebron went home 4 years ago. A lot of people were happy to see him win it all in Cleveland. Now, people think he should leave, true, but we can't ignore the fact that the Cavs as an organization are a complete mess. I think people are just saying if Lebron wants to win a championship, he cannot stayin Cleveland, not because "Cleveland doesn't deserve nice things" but because the Cavs are objectively in disarray.
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
1,023 posts, read 501,075 times
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Originally Posted by bjimmy24 View Post
I don't think the Lebron bit is entirely accurate. A lot of people nationally thought it was cool Lebron went home 4 years ago. A lot of people were happy to see him win it all in Cleveland. Now, people think he should leave, true, but we can't ignore the fact that the Cavs as an organization are a complete mess. I think people are just saying if Lebron wants to win a championship, he cannot stay in Cleveland, not because "Cleveland doesn't deserve nice things" but because the Cavs are objectively in disarray.
I was being a bit sarcastic on some of it. I know it's not everyone nationally, it's just a certain group nationally that feels the Cleveland doesn't deserve LeBron; that's why I say it. There are some people on social media who say that Cleveland doesn't deserve LeBron from when he was drafted to Cleveland to when he came back to Cleveland. Those same people feel he won Cleveland a title now he needs to move on because he's too big for Cleveland. In your opinion, who's fault is it for the Cavs being in disarray?

But, people feel if he goes somewhere else it's a slam-dunk. I know some people feel that Philly is a good situation because of their youth, but he's going into his 16th season so he'll have to babysit Embid and Simmons so he doesn't have 2 or 3 years for them to become contenders. Houston would have to gut their team to get him. They won't be the same team that they were last year, and people are too quick to jump conclusion and make assumptions.

Lakers do have the cap space, but they're not a slam dunk either because Paul George isn't sure he wants to go there, don't know what the Spurs will do with Kawhi plus the young talent that they do keep they're gonna have to babysit them because they're not used to winning. I know the national media and fans are having wet dreams over LeBron going to the Lakers because of the possibility of a big market team being great again because they feel the NBA thrives better when major markets are good. At least, Detroit didn't have those problems with their sports stars.

Last edited by QCongress83216; 06-21-2018 at 04:50 PM..
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Old 06-22-2018, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Tokyo, Japan
6,484 posts, read 7,738,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QCongress83216 View Post
I was being a bit sarcastic on some of it. I know it's not everyone nationally, it's just a certain group nationally that feels the Cleveland doesn't deserve LeBron; that's why I say it. There are some people on social media who say that Cleveland doesn't deserve LeBron from when he was drafted to Cleveland to when he came back to Cleveland. Those same people feel he won Cleveland a title now he needs to move on because he's too big for Cleveland. In your opinion, who's fault is it for the Cavs being in disarray?

But, people feel if he goes somewhere else it's a slam-dunk. I know some people feel that Philly is a good situation because of their youth, but he's going into his 16th season so he'll have to babysit Embid and Simmons so he doesn't have 2 or 3 years for them to become contenders. Houston would have to gut their team to get him. They won't be the same team that they were last year, and people are too quick to jump conclusion and make assumptions.

Lakers do have the cap space, but they're not a slam dunk either because Paul George isn't sure he wants to go there, don't know what the Spurs will do with Kawhi plus the young talent that they do keep they're gonna have to babysit them because they're not used to winning. I know the national media and fans are having wet dreams over LeBron going to the Lakers because of the possibility of a big market team being great again because they feel the NBA thrives better when major markets are good. At least, Detroit didn't have those problems with their sports stars.
Brian Windhorst is the most plugged in reporter when it comes to all things LeBron James, the two of them have a personal relationship and a very open communication channel as they both came into the NBA world at the same time and their relationship has only grown closer since then. Needless to say, when it comes to insight on LeBron, Windhorst is super reliable (as reliable as Adrian Wojnarowski is).

https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/2018...-lebron-james/

Windhorst publicly stated yesterday that LeBron is only looking at the Cavaliers and Lakers, that makes complete sense to me, in fact that was my expectation, because LeBron isn't a journeyman. He's the best player in a generation and he's well aware of the media coverage that follows him and every decision he makes and everything he says or does goes under the microscope. To me, I knew that he is not going to choose some random team like the 76ers in some random as hell city that he has no connections to over where he and his family's comfort zones are already established in Cleveland or Los Angeles (in addition to that, LeBron would be taking a risk leaving Cleveland for only a non-guaranteed chance at chasing rings with an unproven team that still falls short to match up talent wise to not just the Golden State Warriors but also the Houston Rockets and Boston Celtics. I can see him going to Los Angeles for his wife and kids if that is what they are pushing for but other than that, I can't see him going anywhere else if he leaves Cleveland, definitely not to the Sixers.)

I basically said 2 weeks ago what Windhorst reaffirmed just yesterday: http://www.city-data.com/forum/52182057-post67.html

I think if Cleveland wants to retain LeBron then they need to trade Jordan Clarkson and maybe some future first round picks to the Charlotte Hornets for Kemba Walker. Kemba is a star player, who has only been to the playoffs twice in his individually stellar career and is currently playing on a dead-end team with no future in sight. Kemba is very under-appreciated, he's a great person and a magnificent talent, he can shoot efficiently from any spot on the court and can play adept defense. He's one person that I hope one day gets his shine as he's wasting his career away playing in basketball purgatory right now (the perpetually inept Charlotte Hornets). He's also on a remarkable contract, he has 1 year left with $12 million left to pay him, he has the best contract in all of basketball for the level of production he brings to his team. Jordan Clarkson actually gets paid $1 million more than Kemba Walker (Clarkson is due $13 million next season) so their salaries match and the trade can be made and Cleveland can land Kemba Walker as there aren't a whole lot of teams that need a star point guard currently. I also think Cleveland should contact Dwight Howard, who reached a buy-out on his contract with the Brooklyn Nets just yesterday and add him as well on a veterans minimum deal and then Cleveland should cut their losses and salary dump Tristan Thompson.

The Star Core of 4 with LeBron James-Kemba Walker-Kevin Love-Dwight Howard to go with shooters and defenders off the bench like JR Smith, Rodney Hood, and sharpshooter Kyle Korvor is a markedly superior team to the 2018 Cleveland Cavaliers and talent wise superior to the 2017 Cleveland Cavaliers (the last Cleveland team with Kyrie Irving). On paper, that's the best team Cleveland would ever have in its franchise history, strictly from a talent perspective. Barring any serious injuries, that would be a 60+ win team and without question would be the closest competitor to Golden State in the NBA next season. It still may not be enough to beat the Warriors as they would be favored to win it over the Cavaliers but you wouldn't be getting swept out of the NBA Finals and instead taking them to a 6 to 7 game series with a real shot at winning it all. Howard's highest scoring game was when he scored 38 points this season, he scored more than 30 points multiple times in the season with Charlotte. His best game last season was when he scored 32 points and grabbed 30 rebounds (on very efficient shooting from the field), which is completely elite production. He's a total upgrade over the centers Cleveland has now, both offensively and defensively, Howard finished the season averaging 16.4 points per game and 12.3 rebounds per game, in addition to having his healthiest season in nearly half-a-decade. Strong production and at this stage in his career, he will come cheap. After his buy-out, Howard explained that the next team he chooses is somewhere that he feels gives him the best chance to win a championship, if Cleveland is smart, they should get him before the Warriors pick him up. The one weakness the Warriors have had in both 2017 and 2018 is at the center position, if they get Howard, it is game over for the rest of the NBA. Not only would it be a Sisyphean task to beat them but it would push their talent advantage to unprecedented heights, it would be something miraculous winning even 1 game in a playoff series against that team if they add Dwight Howard as their star starting center. So Cleveland should act fast if they want to salvage their future as a title contender and retain LeBron James.

Then again, Cleveland knows what it has to do now: https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/6/...-collin-sexton

This just came in: Dave McMenamin, yet another very plugged in reporter with LeBron James also weighed in to say that yes indeed, LeBron will only be choosing between the Cleveland Cavaliers and Los Angeles Lakers, so Cleveland has a very good chance (at least a minimum of a 50% chance) to retain their guy: https://cavsnation.com/cavs-rumors-e...eveland-or-la/

Between the Cavaliers and Lakers, I suspect that the team that puts together the strongest supporting cast between now and July 4th will likely be the one that gets LeBron James. So Cleveland, times-a-ticking, the countdown to your future is here now.

Last edited by Facts Kill Rhetoric; 06-22-2018 at 06:23 PM..
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Old 06-23-2018, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Which city do you think overall is better?
Several years ago I took a cross country road-trip through the United States from one end to the other, in addition to parts of Canada closest to the Northeast and Midwest geographically. Before the trip started, I told myself that I would clean the slate and leave it completely blank with regards to my opinions, sentiments, and ideas on each of the cities that we would see on our trip. Basically as a means to start anew completely and only draw a rough sketch of a place after that visit. I wanted the fair approach where I gain the experience somewhere first before formulating a definitive opinion on the place. However, I found it to be human nature that the inner consciousness of my thoughts retained some of the opinions and expectations that I held for many of the cities that we would see on our trip.

One such example was Cleveland. Prior to my trip, I had limited exposure and understanding of Cleveland and like most people, I made the mistake of having preconceived notions of the city before really ever getting to know the place. That began to change when we finally had reached Cleveland, our first stop was the very neighborhood that we would be staying in -- Downtown Cleveland. In Cleveland's core, we checked out the lakefront, strolled through an area known as Playhouse Square, spent 5 hours at the Cleveland Museum of Art only after spending a few hours at the Cleveland Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. We were left quite impressed with the market on Lorain Avenue, which emphasized fresh produce and meats that swayed heavily towards cultures of the Eastern Bloc in Europe. Needless to say, given the background of myself and those accompanying me on the trip, it all felt like a first time experience for us when we tried some of those cuisines for the first time. It was a first for any of us to try things like Goulash (a type of Hungarian soup) and the like at Balaton, a family owned restaurant that has been in Cleveland for over half-a-century.

What we took in the most and what surprised us the most about Cleveland, however, was Heinen's Market, a grocery store. For many of us on the trip, that was simply the most beautiful grocery store we had seen at that point in our lives and it was a come-out-of-nowhere surprise for us all. Everything about that experience was first class and it opened our eyes to the depth of culture that Cleveland not only has but has fostered for well over a century's worth of time. The architectural styles and the historical legacies in the city were great aspects that helped us improve our impression of Cleveland. We enjoyed strolling through areas like the Flats and Tremont, both of which we found to be well maintained and quite cultured. It goes without saying that we all but me especially found a lot to like about Cleveland and looking back at it now, the city's reasonable cost of living, easy-going mentality of the people there, and depth of both cultural and entertainment options came as a genuine surprise. I gained an understanding that it can be easy to find happiness in Cleveland, everything felt organic and unforced, and the best attribute of all was that everything was well within the means of reasonably priced. Nothing we paid for felt like an overpay, in fact, we were taken in by the number of things that we paid for as being much less costly than what we anticipated going into Cleveland.

My history Detroit is longer. My grandparents live there in the suburban areas and as do some of my cousins, aunts, and uncles from my dad's side of the family. When I first left high school, I had accepted a term at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, which I stayed in for a semester before ultimately transferring to another school in another state. However, I got the chance to see Detroit in that time. Needless to say it wasn't a particularly good time for Detroit as the United States was in the midst of a severe recession and the city was badly hurting and reeling from it. I've visited Detroit a few times after then, even in recent years, and have been taken aback by all of the positive changes occurring in the core of the city. To me, Detroit has always had the global city imprint, it is the capital of the globe's automotive industry, any carmaker that exists on the planet and wants to succeed has a research and development branch in Detroit. The city's cultural institutions and food scene feel like they are second to none, strong in both regards and the city fosters an insanely identifiable brand of culture that can only be associated with it. This is true of its food scene, this is true of its demographical composition, this is true of its museums, of its murals and arts, of its music scene, of its history, of its architecture, and of its economy.

To me, all there is left for Detroit to do is keep working on improvements. The city is still hallowing out in some inner city neighborhoods and I suspect that we are still about a decade or so away until the city finally stops the population loss at the city-proper level, as an inflection point needs to be reached, but the core is greatly improving and has the bones and infrastructure to be dynamic, it already in some ways is. As the core continues to expand outward, it will help the city's other inner city neighborhoods find new life and investment and make the transition to the here and now. The suburbs of Detroit are solid, every type of suburb and for every socioeconomic bracket of people, generally well-maintained, and some of the best in its country. So with the core making rapid improvements and the suburbs remaining as great as they always have been, all that is left for Detroit to do is fix up most of its non-core inner city neighborhoods inside the city-proper, improve infrastructure, and keep pressing on with economic diversification. I view the airport system in Detroit as a total advantage, buoyed by the size of the metropolitan region, it offers direct flights to many global cities across a spread of continents on Earth. The assets are already there, the comeback story just needs to follow.

I am not going to answer your question on which of these two cities is better, that is a completely subjective question and depends on each individual human being to make that selection on their own and for themselves. For me, I just liked what I saw out of both of them the very last time I was in each one. I hope they continue pressing on with improvements and that both cities stage a successful comeback. I'm happy that in recent years that both the job market (economy) and the population growth in Metro Detroit has stabilized and after a long time has started to post gains, that's a great start.

Both Cleveland and Detroit have a plethora of things to be proud of and both Clevelanders and Detroiters have every right to express their pride in those things. Don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise or sway you away from that fact.

Last edited by Facts Kill Rhetoric; 06-23-2018 at 06:03 PM..
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