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I think this is a good conclusion. The overall density of Toronto being greater than Chicago would be supported by considerably more highrise buildings in Toronto than Chicago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by valentro
I think it is a good indicator of how large a footprint is but it doesn't tell the full story either.
Chicago's first 7.3 million people can absolutely compare in land size to the Toronto urban area and if my math is correct then even more compact area, it's the remaining 2.4 million or so that starts expanding across the horizon in all directions (but particularly west and north). The difference comes from that Chicago drops off more in the outer ring and exurbs, whereas Toronto doesn't nearly as much.
I don't know though. Every measurement or tool has it's benefits and minuses. Frankly I put more stock into urban area than the metropolitan area for the size and scope of a city. While Toronto's urban area is dense, it's also smaller by population whereas Chicago has the larger footprint, albeit overall less density but in the core (Cook County + DuPage County) just as dense with the larger population.
Wow great database. The difference in size between the urbanized area of Chicagoland and GTA looks huge and helps explain how it is possible that it is estimated to be around three times larger than Toronto's. Because it actually is!
Lots of low density sprawl in Chicago's metro. Toronto's metro is much more dense and compact.
Lots of low density sprawl in Chicago's metro. Toronto's metro is much more dense and compact.
I don't disagree with that at all, but it still has the connectivity of one fairly cohesive urban area, which Toronto's region of similar size - whatever the population (prob around 6.5m) - might lack.
And those figures are from where? Cook County has a similar population in roughly the same land area. Also, you have to go another 10,00 square miles just to find 2.5 million more people. You can find the same amount of people in just 1/6th of that area in Chicago. The inner cores(1,000 square miles or so) are comparable but Chicago keeps going and Toronto ends. You would have to add Milwaukee to Chicago to make it a fair comparison to the Golden Horseshoe. Let's be honest here.
I actually love both Toronto and Chicago and I'm happy that both cities are experiencing substantial growth in their urban cores. I can't wait to see what the Toronto and Chicago of 2020 look like.
Chicago only seems bigger when you're right in the heart of downtown (in terms of built form, that is - Toronto seems more vibrant in terms of pedestrian activity). Away from downtown and throughout the suburbs, Toronto seems like a bigger and more urban city. There are thousands of high-rise buildings lining the major thoroughfares and highways many miles away away from the city centre. Driving through outer and suburban Chicago seems very sparse, low-rise and spread out in comparison.
Chicago was the world's fourth largest city on Earth in 1900, its built urban environment is on a scale unknown in Toronto. There are hundred of miles of thouroughfares in Chicago with 2-3-4-5 story multi-family brick housing. Just because Chicago is the birthplace of the skyscraper does not mean its urban form is solely designed by tall buildings. If you started in downtown Chicago and walked along Clark Street for example, northward, you'd still be in a constant urban landscape of multi-story buildings/streetwall for over 10 miles, almost all of it filled with vibrant commercial activity/sidewalks/pedestrians and much of it century-old architecture that would not be out of place in the great capitals of Europe. The same could be said for any number of other thouroughfares such as Milwaukee Avenue, Halsted Street, Western Avenue. The list goes on and on. When I visited Toronto, outside of a few major roads, I felt like it was not anywhere near the level of urbanity of Chicago.
And in terms of density...Cook and DuPage counties alone have 6.14 million people in 5,107 km-sq
"Greater Toronto" has 5.6 million people in 7,124 km sq.
It should also be noted that some believe Chicago's city proper population was undercounted in the last census by as much as 250,000, much of it because of the fear among illegal (mostly Mexican) immigrants to fill out the census forms compared to 2000, 1990 in the midst of anti-illegal immigrant sentiment during the Great recession.
Chicago was the world's fourth largest city on Earth in 1900, its built urban environment is on a scale unknown in Toronto. There are hundred of miles of thouroughfares in Chicago with 2-3-4-5 story multi-family brick housing. Just because Chicago is the birthplace of the skyscraper does not mean its urban form is solely designed by tall buildings. If you started in downtown Chicago and walked along Clark Street for example, northward, you'd still be in a constant urban landscape of multi-story buildings/streetwall for over 10 miles, almost all of it filled with vibrant commercial activity/sidewalks/pedestrians and much of it century-old architecture that would not be out of place in the great capitals of Europe. The same could be said for any number of other thouroughfares such as Milwaukee Avenue, Halsted Street, Western Avenue. The list goes on and on. When I visited Toronto, outside of a few major roads, I felt like it was not anywhere near the level of urbanity of Chicago.
And in terms of density...Cook and DuPage counties alone have 6.14 million people in 5,107 km-sq
"Greater Toronto" has 5.6 million people in 7,124 km sq.
It should also be noted that some believe Chicago's city proper population was undercounted in the last census by as much as 250,000, much of it because of the fear among illegal (mostly Mexican) immigrants to fill out the census forms compared to 2000, 1990 in the midst of anti-illegal immigrant sentiment during the Great recession.
That can be said for many cities, nothing exclusive to Chicago
I don't understand the people saying Chicago feels bigger. Downtown maybe, but not the metro as a whole. When you get to the GTA you see much more density as you're driving to downtown Toronto than you do when you're heading into downtown Chicago. It seems like many of Toronto's suburbs have real downtowns of their own, but I'm not completely sure what they're like at street level. I've only seen them passing through on the highway, but the density is clearly there.
Chicago is so, so, so much bigger, and I am not talking numbers here. Culture, History, Architecture......
when Toronto produces a bit of its own culture instead of screaming how diverse it is (basically that having more people NOT FROM Toronto makes it super cool)......maybe Chicagoans (and Americans) will start to pay attention....
when Toronto has a list of songs about itself, then let's talk.
A
"An Afternoon in Midway Plaisance. Fantasie for Piano.", 1893 - Composer: Gustav Luders[1]
"Apostrophe to Chicago" - Composer & Lyricist: Mrs. Emily M. (Blakeslee) Boyden
"Awake! Awake!" - Composer & Lyricist: Mrs. Emily M. (Blakeslee) Boyden
B
"Back to Chicago" - Styx
"Bad, Bad Leroy Brown" - Jim Croce
"Baseball Dreams" - Ralph's World
"The Belle of Chicago" 1892 - Composer: John Phillip Sousa
"The Belle of Chicago Barn Dance" - Composer: Theo. Bonheur
"The Belle of Lincoln Park" - Composer & Lyricist: Geo. Maywood
"Best Wishes to your Black Lung" - Less Than Jake
"Big Bill the Builder" (mayor) 1928 - Composers & Lyricists: Milton Weil, Bernie Grossman & Larry Shay
"The Billiken Man" 1909 - Composer: Melville J. Gideon, Lyricist: E. Ray Goetz, Sung by Blanche Ring
"Born in Chicago" - Paul Butterfield
"Boost Chicago" - Composer: Armin P. Bauer
"Bow to the Masta", 1999 - Kool Keith
"Boy Reporter Blues, Dedicated to Horace Wade - Boy Reporter of the Chicago Evening American" 1924 - Composers: Dell Lampe & J. Bodewalt Lampe, Lyricist: Haven Gillespie
"The Burning Iroquois" (theater) 1904 - Composer: Edward Stanley, Lyricist: Mathew Goodwin
"The Burning of the Iroquois" 1904 - Composer: Thos. R. Confare, Lyricist: Morris S. Silver
"Daley's Gone" - Steve Goodman
"Dancing in the Street", 1964 - Martha and the Vandellas
"Dead End Street" - Lou Rawls
"Dear Chicago" - Ryan Adams
"Dennehy" - Serengeti (rapper)
"A Dying Cubs Fan's Last Request" - Steve Goodman
E
"The Eggplant That Ate Chicago" 1967 - Dr. West's Medicine Show and Junk Band
"The EL" - Rhett Miller
"The Elements: Fire", recorded 1966, released 2011 - Brian Wilson
"Everything" - Dawn Xiana Moon
F
"Fair Women of Chicago Waltzes" 1893 - Composer: Theo. H. Northrup
"Far, Far Away" - Wilco
"Ferris Wheel March" 1893 - Composer: Geo. Maywood
"Ferris Wheel Waltz" 1893 - Composer: G. Valisi, Lyricist: Harry C. Clyde
"The Forest of Love and Romance, Theme song of the Black Forest Village, A Century of Progress Chicago" 1933 - Composer: Ernie Kratzinger, Lyricist: Charles Kallen
"Full Moon" - Common
"Funeral March In Memoriam, Carter H. Harrison, Mayor of Chicago" 1893, Composer : W. Herbert Layon
G
"Go Cubs Go" Steve Goodman
"Go Go Chicago. Wonder City Home of Mine." - Composer & Lyricist : Clitus M. Wickens
"Go Go Gadget Flow" - Lupe Fiasco
"Goin' to Chicago Blues" 1939 - Composer: Count Basie Orchestra
"Golden Ring" - Tammy Wynette & George Jones
"Goodbye to Guyville" - Urge Overkill
"Grand Exposition March" - Composer: Louis Falk
"Greater Chicago March" - Composer: Jacob Valentine Havener, Lyricist: Agner Clark Winkler
"Green Mill Garden Blues" 1920 - Composer: Unknown (88 key Piano Roll)
"Growing Up" - Fall Out Boy
"Greetings. Chicago's Official Song. 1833-Chicago-1933" - Composer & Lyricist: George D. Gaw, Transcribed & Arranged by: Frank Barden.
"A Guided Tour of Chicago" - The Lawrence Arms
H
"Hail Chicago (March)" 1933 - Composer: Stanley Kay, Lyricist: A. Seaborg
"Hail, Chicago! Official Song of the Pageant of Progress" 1921 - Composer: Bob Allen, Lyricist: Ted Turnquist
"Hail to Thee, Chicago" - Composer: John E. King, Lyricist: Estella A. Johnson-Hunt
"Hands Open"- Snow Patrol
"Happy Summertime" - R. Kelly
"The Hat He Never Ate" - Composer: Ben Harney, Lyricist: Howard S. Taylor
"Hello Chicago Fox-Trot" 1933 - Composer: Anthony Misuraca, Lyricist: Joseph Argento
"Here Come the Hawks"
"Hitch Hike" - The Rolling Stones
"Home" - Kanye West
"Homecoming" - Kanye West, Ft. Chris Martin
"Homesick At Spacecamp" - Fall Out Boy
I
"I Am Proud of Chicago" - Composer & Lyricist: Ben Schwartzberg
"I Came Home" - Rhymefest
"I Dream of Chicago" - Parlours
"I Used to Work in Chicago. I Did But I Don't Anymore" 1944 - Composers & Lyricists: Larry Vincent & Sunny Skylar
"I'll Meet You In Chicago (At The Fair)" 1928 - Composers & Lyricists: Charlie Harrison & Fred Rose
"I'm a Ramblin' Man" - Waylon Jennings
"I'm Dying Tomorrow" - Alkaline Trio
"I'm from Chicago" 1917 - Composer: Leo Edwards, Lyricist: Blanche Merrill
"I'm Going Right Back to Chicago" (Coon Song) 1906 - Composer: Egbert Van Alstyne, Lyricist: Harry Williams
"In Cairo Street: A Characteristic Fantasie for Piano" 1893 - Composer: Geo. Schleiffarth
"In Chicago" - Composer & Lyricist: Olive Jeane
"In 1933. (Where Will You Be)" - Composer & Lyricist: Art Kassel, Arranger: Charles Adams
"In Old Chicago" 1937- Composers & Lyricists: Mack Gordon & Harry Revel
"In Tha Chi" - Shawnna
"In The Kitchen - Umphrey's McGee
"In The Ghetto"- Elvis Presley
"Is Chicago, Is Not Chicago" - Soul Coughing
"It's a Way They Have in Chicago" (from Sinbad) 1896 - Composer: Gustav Lüders, Lyricist: M.E. Rourke
"It's a Way They Have in Chicago" (from the Royal Chef) 1904 - Composer: Ben M. Jerome, Lyricists: Geo. E. Stoddard & Chas. S. Taylor
J
"Jesus Just Left Chicago" - ZZ Top
"Jolly Bears, To Those on the Board of Trade of Chicago. Polka Humoristic" 1880 - Composer: Geo. Schleiffarth
"Just Blew in From the Windy City" - Doris Day
K
L
"L.A., Goodbye" - The Ides of March
"Lake Effect Kid" (Demo Song) - Fall Out Boy
"Lake Michigan" - Rogue Wave
"Lake Shore Drive" - Aliotta Haynes Jeremiah
"Lake Shore Driving" - Duran Duran
"The Last Day of The Fair" 1893 - Composer: Frank Swain
"LAX To O'Hare" - The Academy Is...
"Leaving Chicago" - Knockout
"Let's Go Chicago! I Will" - Composer & Lyricist: Earl Cleland
"Lincoln Park. A Solo and Chorus" - Composer: T. Glass, Lyricist: Geo.W. Morse
"Lincoln Park Pirates" - Steve Goodman
"Little Joe From Chicago" 1930 - Composers: Mary Lou Williams, Henry Wells
"Living in Chicago" - The Bee Gees
"Love/Hate (So Chicago)" - Shock Stars
"Lovin's Been Here and Gone to Mecca Flats" 1926 - Composer: Jimmy Blythe
M
"The Man from the South with a Big Cigar in his Mouth" 1930 - Composers & Lyricists: Rube Bloom & Harry M. Woods
"The March Maroon, University of Chicago March and Two-Step" 1906 - Composer: Harry Turner
"Marching on to Chicago" 1933 - Composers & Lyricists: Richard Daly, Thomas Parmiter & Clitus Wickens
"Mecca Flat Blues" 1924 - Composer: Jimmy Blythe, Lyricists: Jimmy Blythe & Priscilla Stewart
"Meet Me in Chicago" - Mat Kearney
"Mercy Me" - Alkaline Trio
"Miss Chicago (The Great 'Pageant' Song)" 1921 - Composer: Edmund Braham, Lyricist: W.S. Greelish
"Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" - Brian Wilson
"My Kind of Town" - Frank Sinatra
N
"The Night Chicago Died" - Paper Lace
O
"Ode for the opening of the World's Fair. Held at Chicago, 1892" - Composer: C. W. Chadwick, Lyricist: Harriet Monroe
"Oh City of a Century" - Composer: Eleanor Everest Freer
"Oh You Chicago, Oh You New York" 1910 - Composer: Albert Von Tilzer, Lyricists: Junie McCree & Sydney Rosenfeld
"On a Freezing Chicago Street" - Margot and the Nuclear So and So's
"On the Midway, or the Jolly Bum, Bum" 1893 - Composer & Lyricist: Louis Ortenstein
"On The South Side of Chicago" - Freddy Cole
"The Original Chicago Blues" 1915 - Composer: James White
"Our Chicago" (U of C) 1926 - Composer & Lyricist: Norman Reid
"GO" - Ofycial & Wade White Owl feat Papi
P
"Palmah House Shuffle" (Palmer House) Hotel 1903 - Composer: Libbie Erickson
"Peace Frog" - The Doors
"Picketlines And Pepperspray" - Silent Film
"Prairie Song" - Billy Corgan
"Put the Blame on Mame" 1946 - Composers & Lyricists: Allan Roberts, Doris Fisher
Q
R
"The Rebirth" - Chapter 13
"Red Hot Chicago" Flying High (musical) 1930 - Composers & Lyricists: B.G. DeSylva, Lew Brown & Ray Henderson
"Red Leaves of October" - Michael Peter Smith
"Rest Loved Ones Rest - to the lost lives in the Iroquois Theatre Fire" 1904 - Composer: Eustacio Rosales, Lyricist: Geo. Cooper
"Riverview" - Billy Corgan
"Rogers Park" - Justin Townes Earle
"Route 66", 1946 - Bobby Troup
"The Rhythm of State Street" (The official song of the State Street Council) 1937 - Composer & Lyricist: Wendall Hall
S
"San Francisco" - Alkaline Trio
"Saying Goodbye" - Every Avenue
"The Seer's Tower" - Sufjan Stevens
"She Shook Him In Chicago" - (Madame Sherry 1909) - Composer: Karl L. Hoschna, Lyricist: Otto Hauerbach
"The Sheik of Chicago (Mustafa)" 1960 - Adaptor & Lyricist: Bob Merrill, Recorded by the Four Lads and Archie Bleyer
"Shy-Town" - Gorillaz
"Sidewalks of Chicago" - Merle Haggard
"Slow Down Chicago" - Canasta
"Somewhere on Fullerton" - Allister
"The Song of the Ferris Wheel - World's Fair 1893" - Composer: Geo. Schleiffarth, Lyricist: M. A. Sturgis
"Southbound Ryan" - Dennis DeYoung
"Southside" - Common ft. Kanye West
"Southside Mojo" - JaGoFF
"South Side Irish" - Arranmore
"South Union" - Lucky Boys Confusion
"Star Witness" - Neko Case (about Humboldt Park: Neko Case | Interview | The A.V. Club)
"State Street Tomorrow - Theme Song" 1930 - Composers: Carelton Colby & Maurice Wetzel from the Radio Station KYW staff.
"Stay Chi" - Juice
"Stratford-On-Guy" - Liz Phair
"Sunshine in Chicago" - Sun Kil Moon
"Super Bowl Shuffle" - Chicago Bears Shufflin' Crew, the 1985 Chicago Bears
"Sweet Home Chicago" 1936 - Composer: Robert Johnson, Lyricists: Robert Johnson & Roosevelt Sykes
"Sweet Spots" - The Fiery Furnaces
"Swing Life Away" - Rise Against
"Switchboard" - Amanda Blank
T
"Take Me Back to Chicago", 1985 - title track on Take Me Back to Chicago by Chicago
"Take the Time", 1993 - Waiting for the Night by the Freddy Jones Band
"That's That", 2006 - Snoop Dogg featuring R. Kelly
"This City", 2011 - Patrick Stump featuring Lupe Fiasco
"Tonight, Tonight", 1995 - The Smashing Pumpkins
"Tonight Will Last Forever", 2005 - Photographs by Mest
"The Trianon March", 1934 - Dedicated to the Chicago Association of Dancing Masters; Composer: R. Alexander Campbell
"True Enough", 2009 - Everything's Easy by Girlyman
"Twilight Serenade", 2005 - Another Ghost by Jason Myles Goss
"Two Words", 2003 - Kanye West featuring Mos Def, Freeway, and the Boys Choir of Harlem
U
"The University Quickstep", 1865 - Inscribed to the President and Friends of the Chicago University, Composer: E. M. Shaw
V
"Via Chicago", 1999 - Summerteeth by Wilco
"The Viking March - Captain Andersen's Viking Ship from Norway to the World's Fair", 1893 - Composer: H. C. Verner
W
"We Ride", 1998 - R. by R. Kelly, featuring Jay-Z, et al.
"Welcome 2 Chicago", 2001 - Abstract Mindstate featuring Kanye West
"We're All Crazy in Chicago", 1986 - Jonathon Brandmeier
"Weston's March to Chicago", 1867 - Composer: Edward Mack; Publisher: S. Brainard & Sons, Cleveland[2]
"Wheels A-Rolling", 1948 - official song of the Chicago Railroad Fair. Composer: Helen Purcell Maxwell; Lyricist: Philip Maxwell
"When the Levee Breaks", 1929 - Composers & Lyricists: Kansas Joe McCoy and Memphis Minnie; re-worked by Led Zeppelin in 1971
"When the Wind Blows in Chicago" - performed by both Roy Clark and Bobby Bare in 1964, and Eddy Arnold in 1970
"The White City March and Twostep", 1905 - Composer: Hampton Durant
"Windy City", 2009 - Joy by Phish
"Windy City Boogie", c. 1950-1954 - J. T. Brown
"Windy City Boogie Woogie", c. 1941-1943 - Nat King Cole[3]
"Windy City Two-Step and March", 1900 - Composer: F. R. Sweetland
"Winter in Chicago", 2012 - Toil by Flatfoot 56
"The Woman Downstairs", 1998 - Through the Trees by The Handsome Family
"World's Columbian Exposition Waltz", 1893 - Composer: Adelaide Marcelia Gluck
"The World's Fair or A Voyage to Chicago", 1893 - Composer & Lyricist: Leonard Gautier
Y
"You Wake Up in the Morning in Chicago", 1915 - Composer: Harry Carroll; Lyricists: Ballard MacDonald and Coleman Goetz[4]
"You'll Find 'Em in Chicago" (from The Yankee Regent), 1905 - Composer: Ben M. Jerome; Lyricists: Chas S. Adelman and I. L. Blumenstock
"You're Dead", 2001 - From Here to Infirmary by Alkaline Trio
Z
"Zelda", 2007 - Isn't This Supposed to Be Fun!? by Farewell
Songs about Chicago sport teams
"All the Way", 2008 - Eddie Vedder
"Bear Down Chicago Bears", 1941 - Composer & Lyricist: Jerry Downs
"Chelsea Dagger", with text modified by Blackhawks' fans, 2006 - Composer and Lyricist: Jon Fratelli, Performers: The Fratellis
"The Chicago Cubs Song - Hey Hey! Holy Mackerel!", 1969 - Composer: John Frigo, Lyricist: I. C. Haag
"Come On You Cubs Play Ball", 1937 - Composer & Lyricists: anon, Tiffany Music Company
"Cubs on Parade (The Great March and Two-Step)", 1907 - Composer: H.R. Hempel, Arranger: Jos. Techen
"The Glory of the Cubs", 1908 - Composer: Arthur Marshall, Lyricist: F.R. Sweirngen
"Go Cubs Go", 1984 - Composer & Lyricist: Steve Goodman
"Here Come the Hawks", 1968 - Composer: J. Swayzee, Producer: The Dick Marx Orchestra and Choir
"Hurrah for the Cubs", 1930 - Composer: Burrell Van Buren, Lyricist: Betty Douglas
"Let's Go, Go-Go White Sox", 1959 - Composer & Lyricists: Captain Stubby and the Buccaneers
"Super Bowl Shuffle", 1985 - Composers: B. Daniels, L. Barry, Lyricists: R. Meyer, M. Owens, Performers: Chicago Bears Shufflin' Crew, the 1985 Chicago Bears
"Watch the Cubs Play Ball", 1941 - Composer & Lyricist: Harry A. Magill
"Wave the Flag (For Old Chicago)", 1929 - fight song of the University of Chicago; Lyricist: Gordon Erickson
"White Sox Fitted", 2010 - Composer & Lyricist: Young General
"The White Sox March", 1907 - Composer: T.F. Durand
There is no doubting Toronto is a big city and is borderline world class, but the central business district ("downtown") seems downright small in comparison to Chicago. Not a knock... it is somewhat vibrant, but not on a level of Chicago.
I agree with other posters that Toronto density does seem to stay fairly constant as you branch out from the core. Toronto's transportation "node" planning is done very well.
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