U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S. > City vs. City
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-07-2011, 08:26 PM
 
Location: The State Of California
9,138 posts, read 11,688,236 times
Reputation: 3433

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Absolutely right, which relates to my main point. To wit, just as the "cowboy culture" in Kansas does not exclude them from being a Midwestern state, so neither does the same (cowboy culture) exclude Texas (and Oklahoma for the most part) from being essentially Southern states.

Going by your earlier posts, you seem to say that the existence of the cowboy makes it more of a Southwestern state (as in the sense of a relationship with NM and AZ), than a Southern one. I am rejoinding by saying that even the two cowboy prototyes are different. The Texan being (like in most other historical arenas...no pun intended! LOL) mostly Southern (i.e. Old South drover type) in habits and attitudes, while those of the other states were more derived from that of the Mexican vaquero (i.e. tending and herding). Kansas and Texas shared only in the sense we had them and they bought them! And neither shared much with the SW nor Rocky Mountain States! LOL

In a nutshell, just because there emerged a shared cowboy culture in the frontier after the "Civil War" does not form any basic element to make the post-bellum west a region unto itself. Any more than the ante-bellum Atlantic coast shipping culture make, say, South Carolina and Massachusetts part of the same region.

In fact, your point about the accents illustrates the differences in terms of history and culture. Kansas is a Midwestern state and its settlement patterns and speech pattern bear this out. Texas is essentially a Southern state in terms of the same criteria. As you say, Kansans do not sound much like Texans and Oklahomas...whose speech is (in terms of the whole) are only one of many sub-varities of what is broadly known -- linguistically speaking -- as "Southern American English." And neither group have all that much in kin with the Mountain and SW states...

Hmmmm...did we stray off topic?

Western Texas is without a doubt Southwestern , however Eastern
Texas is "dye in the wool Deep Southern" , so we both are right on
the matter at hand. Oklahoma was a INDIAN NATION until losing the
Civil War and having their's Indian NATION taken Back By The
(NORTH) "INDIAN NATIONS" are SOUTHWESTERN Don't You Think???
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-07-2011, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
5,530 posts, read 9,801,024 times
Reputation: 2365
To me it is, it's the epitome of the "Southwest" and its ways.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-07-2011, 11:00 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 16,660,846 times
Reputation: 5697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howest2008 View Post
Western Texas is without a doubt Southwestern , however Eastern
Texas is "dye in the wool Deep Southern" , so we both are right on
the matter at hand. Oklahoma was a INDIAN NATION until losing the
Civil War and having their's Indian NATION taken Back By The
(NORTH) "INDIAN NATIONS" are SOUTHWESTERN Don't You Think???
Well, I would only agree to a limited extent about West Texas. Depends on which part of west Texas. The trans-pecos "horn" is unquestionably part of the true interior desert Southwest (i.e. New Mexico and Arizona as the core), but the other parts of west Texas are not so easily classified as such. In terms of physical geography and general climate (at least generally west of the 100th meridian), yes, definitely more akin to the SW than the humid sub-tropical climate typical of the rest of Texas and the southeast. I agree with that.

The Climate of Texas

However, it is not so simple in the realm of history and culture. That is to say, having been overwhelmingly settled by southeastern pioneers, the overall cultural patterns (Southern Baptist church domination, dialect/accent, political history, general folkways and customs, etc) are clearly more Southern in origin and nature than Southwestern.

Really, I think Raymond Gastil in his classic work "Cultural Regions of the United States" pinned it pretty well when he classified western Texas (and most of Oklahoma) as a sub-region of the larger South he called the "western South"

Generally speaking, the label denoted a sub-region where essentially Southern characteristics were heavily blended with aspects of the frontier west. Literally, where the Old South met the post-bellum West; something very unique! This was/is something much different from the Southwest of New Mexico and Arizona where there was never anything "Southern" about them.

Yes, I agree with you that Indian Nations and large reservations are a very Southwestern characteristic. At the same time though, there are many, many, traits of Oklahoma history and culture (at least in the eastern, central and southern parts) that connect it with the American South over the Midwest or Southwest. For instance, it has one of the highest per capita Southern Baptist Church membership in the country; ranking only below Mississippi and Alabama. Most native Oklahomans speak with a "Southern American English" dialect. And hey, look at its "state meal". Now if THIS aint Southern...?

Oklahoma State Meal

Anyway, interesting discussion! (although I think it was supposed to be about southern California! LOL)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2011, 12:38 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 16,660,846 times
Reputation: 5697
Default Just to mention...

Something that occured to me to mention is that many of those old Hollywood "western" movies (which I love, far as that goes), about Texas were actually filmed in Arizona and southern California. The landscape (pure desert, saguaro cactus, painted hills and buttes, etc) became so ingrained in national image that many people who had never been to Texas thought such was the typical physical geography of the state (in fact, very little of Texas is true desert, and those type cactus do not grow in the state).

*laughing a bit* In fact, SO ingrained did that early imagery become the popular one conjured up when considering Texas, that later on, when movies were made about Texas, in order to make it "believable", it was the "false" one that had to be presented. For instance, I have actually seen a few movies where when the action crosses the state line from the southeast states into Texas, that the landscape suddenly becomes magically transformed from pine forests into tumbleweeds and blowing dust! LOL
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2011, 03:40 PM
 
Location: The State Of California
9,138 posts, read 11,688,236 times
Reputation: 3433
Default I Remember Some Of THAT..................

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Well, I would only agree to a limited extent about West Texas. Depends on which part of west Texas. The trans-pecos "horn" is unquestionably part of the true interior desert Southwest (i.e. New Mexico and Arizona as the core), but the other parts of west Texas are not so easily classified as such. In terms of physical geography and general climate (at least generally west of the 100th meridian), yes, definitely more akin to the SW than the humid sub-tropical climate typical of the rest of Texas and the southeast. I agree with that.

The Climate of Texas

I'm from TULSA and have been in most of TEXAS................

However, it is not so simple in the realm of history and culture. That is to say, having been overwhelmingly settled by southeastern pioneers, the overall cultural patterns (Southern Baptist church domination, dialect/accent, political history, general folkways and customs, etc) are clearly more Southern in origin and nature than Southwestern.

Really, I think Raymond Gastil in his classic work "Cultural Regions of the United States" pinned it pretty well when he classified western Texas (and most of Oklahoma) as a sub-region of the larger South he called the "western South"

Generally speaking, the label denoted a sub-region where essentially Southern characteristics were heavily blended with aspects of the frontier west. Literally, where the Old South met the post-bellum West; something very unique! This was/is something much different from the Southwest of New Mexico and Arizona where there was never anything "Southern" about them.

The states that make up the DEEP SOUTH aren't alike in many
way either , and even within a DEEP SOUTHERN STATE you can
find regions that differ "greatly" take the Atlanta-Savannah
regions for an example.

Yes, I agree with you that Indian Nations and large reservations are a very Southwestern characteristic. At the same time though, there are many, many, traits of Oklahoma history and culture (at least in the eastern, central and southern parts) that connect it with the American South over the Midwest or Southwest. For instance, it has one of the highest per capita Southern Baptist Church membership in the country; ranking only below Mississippi and Alabama. Most native Oklahomans speak with a "Southern American English" dialect. And hey, look at its "state meal". Now if THIS aint Southern...?

I see where you are coming from , but OK is Southwestern with
area's that have a strong SOUTHERN FEEL to it , and the two Urban
Area's don't have a SOUTHERN FEEL to it at all...Oklahoma City
and TULSA OK they have a Southwestern Feel.

Oklahoma State Meal

I remember eating a lot of that stuff.................

Anyway, interesting discussion! (although I think it was supposed to be about southern California! LOL)
Anybody who thinks that CALIFORNIA is SOUTHWESTERN is living
in a DREAMWORLD , the west coast is made up of (CA,Oregon
Washington) The borders of the PACIFIC NORTHWEST Oregon and
Washington.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-09-2011, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Rockville, MD
842 posts, read 1,405,871 times
Reputation: 433
Southern California outside of Los Angeles, Orange and San Diego counties can be quite Southwestern in vibe. Even in some of the inland portions of the aforementioned counties, the vibe can be southwestern.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2011, 11:21 AM
 
353 posts, read 484,207 times
Reputation: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howest2008 View Post
When is the next scheduled Rodeo for the Phoenix area LAX-PHX????
I wouldn't know Howest and I don't even know if there is one to be honest. Phoenix isn't the place you think it is. It's not a bunch of twangy talking stetson hat wearing, big belt buckle, tobacco chewing cowboys. Phoenix is refugees from the midwest, east coast, and California. Why you have this desire to make Phoenix look like a bunch of country good ol boys is beyond me. You are so far off what it's actually like there. It's kind of amusing actually.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2011, 12:32 PM
 
Location: The State Of California
9,138 posts, read 11,688,236 times
Reputation: 3433
Default Don't Take It Serious.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAX-PHX View Post
I wouldn't know Howest and I don't even know if there is one to be honest. Phoenix isn't the place you think it is. It's not a bunch of twangy talking stetson hat wearing, big belt buckle, tobacco chewing cowboys. Phoenix is refugees from the midwest, east coast, and California. Why you have this desire to make Phoenix look like a bunch of country good ol boys is beyond me. You are so far off what it's actually like there. It's kind of amusing actually.

It was a joke "but" there are rodeos in Phoenix AZ see below....
AGRA - Arizona Gay Rodeo Association - hosts of the RRR Rodeo - Yeee Haaaww
...there are even Rodeos IN NYC &
LAX & CHICAGO and believe IT OR NOT TORONTO CANADA and
MILWAUKEE ....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2011, 02:41 PM
 
353 posts, read 484,207 times
Reputation: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howest2008 View Post
It was a joke "but" there are rodeos in Phoenix AZ see below....
AGRA - Arizona Gay Rodeo Association - hosts of the RRR Rodeo - Yeee Haaaww
...there are even Rodeos IN NYC &
LAX & CHICAGO and believe IT OR NOT TORONTO CANADA and
MILWAUKEE ....
Sorry I'm not more up on my rodeo knowledge. I know Scottsdale had one way back in the day but I think what used to be the rodeo grounds was paved over long ago for shopping malls, restaurants, and night clubs. I think Vegas has one but again sorry the extent of my rodeo knowledge is limited.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2011, 10:50 PM
 
Location: The State Of California
9,138 posts, read 11,688,236 times
Reputation: 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAX-PHX View Post
Sorry I'm not more up on my rodeo knowledge. I know Scottsdale had one way back in the day but I think what used to be the rodeo grounds was paved over long ago for shopping malls, restaurants, and night clubs. I think Vegas has one but again sorry the extent of my rodeo knowledge is limited.

I left Oklahoma because of the Lack Of Love For RODEOS i'm not
crazy about them myself , but cowboys did once upon a time have
a large Brand On AZ... making it both a Southwestern and a Western
State along with Nev and California....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S. > City vs. City
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top