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View Poll Results: Cleveland or St. Louis
Cleveland 67 38.73%
St. Louis 106 61.27%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-26-2008, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Cleveland Suburbs
2,554 posts, read 5,835,336 times
Reputation: 619

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Cleveland gets my vote, and thats not just because I live in the area.

I have been to St. Louis many times. Its not even funny how much these two cities have in common, how much they look alike, and the city districts are so much alike, for instance both Little Italys.

St. Louis has more urban decay than Cleveland. I think that is because St. Louis saw a faster decline in population than Cleveland. It was sad to see, but that is the case in many cities, such great areas gone to waste. But now things are changing. St. Louis saw some slow growth in the last few years, but once again started to decline according to the census bureau. With the construction going on all over these two cities, I don't think it will be long before both cities see a raise in population again.

Cleveland has a larger more diverse economy. And what is this with Cleveland's rapid transit? Our rapid transit has a lot of ridership. If it didn't see such great ridership why would we be looking at the hundreds of millions going into the Euclid Corridor Project to expand the transit system to the eastern suburbs and Case Western univesity and University Circle. St. Louis when I visited at the times I rode did not see many people on the trains.

Our downtowns are doing very well. Billions being poured into both cities. I know Cleveland's downtown population is growing faster than St. Louis's. I wish St. Louis would develop their riverfront. I see nothing but parking lots. Cincinnati is doing a great job of developing theirs. Cleveland is redeveloping their lakefront.

These cities have so much in common. I was in certain parts of St. Louis and could see it being Cleveland, and vice versa.


St. Louis Downtown:
Downtown St. Louis Partnership - Home

Cleveland Downtown:
Cleveland City Planning Commission

Historic Warehouse District

.:: The Avenue District ::.

Construction of the new mid-rise condo, just part of the large Avenue District development. Mixed use, shopping, condos, restaurants.

.:: The Avenue District ::. (broken link)
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Old 01-26-2008, 03:23 PM
 
1,953 posts, read 2,568,187 times
Reputation: 1562
Quote:
Originally Posted by slengel View Post
st louis has better transit than cleveland. cleveland has a rail system but no one rides it, at least compared to the busy trains in st louis. you cannot get a seat on the trains here at rush hour. cleveland's rapid system is quiet.
in st louis, metrolink trains serve very important institutions and link downtown stl with downtown clayton. in between you have forest park, wash u, barnes hospital, the central west end, the loop and st louis university. cleveland's trains don't really go where you need them to.
I disagree. Clevelanders may not ride the trains as much as St. Louis folks, at the moment, but much of that is b/c one (Cleveland's) is old and the other (St. Louis) is mostly spanking new... And I completely disagree that Cleveland's rapid doesn't "go where you need them to." Try Hopkins airport, Ohio City, University Circle/(huge) U. Hospitals, the Warehouse District and Gateway and to the door of all 3 pro sports stadiums, including a unique underground walkway from the central Tower City/Public Square terminal to The Q arena and Progressive (just formally Jacobs) Field. (If you've ever been to a Browns game, you'd see Manhattan-like crowding on the trains through Cleveland's CBD and out the newer Waterfront Rail line directly to Browns Stadium... In addition, RTA's getting 2 new large TOD's at a relocated stop in extremely popular Little Italy, near U. Circle and down in the flats, where a large mixed use residential/retail/office complex is being build along the river- and a new office building will have it's own new station along the Rapid. We're also completing the Euclid Corridor project, one of the first major Bus Rapid Transit lines in the country. Also, a grass roots campaign is looking to restore some commuter rail service...

I'm not saying the rapid is perfect, but it's better than you say... Older systems have more challenges than new, fresh systems like St. Louis' Metrolink. The infrastructure gets old and rundown and must be rehabbed. But more importantly, the 'old/rundown' perception has to be changed.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Portland, Maine
4,180 posts, read 12,762,256 times
Reputation: 1603
APTA: APTA Ridership Reports Statistics--United States Transit Agency Totals Index (http://www.apta.com/research/stats/ridership/riderep/indexus.cfm - broken link)
--If you click on 2007, it will show that Cleveland edges out St. Louis in ridership on mass transit but not by much.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Cleveland Suburbs
2,554 posts, read 5,835,336 times
Reputation: 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
I disagree. Clevelanders may not ride the trains as much as St. Louis folks, at the moment, but much of that is b/c one (Cleveland's) is old and the other (St. Louis) is mostly spanking new... And I completely disagree that Cleveland's rapid doesn't "go where you need them to." Try Hopkins airport, Ohio City, University Circle/(huge) U. Hospitals, the Warehouse District and Gateway and to the door of all 3 pro sports stadiums, including a unique underground walkway from the central Tower City/Public Square terminal to The Q arena and Progressive (just formally Jacobs) Field. (If you've ever been to a Browns game, you'd see Manhattan-like crowding on the trains through Cleveland's CBD and out the newer Waterfront Rail line directly to Browns Stadium... In addition, RTA's getting 2 new large TOD's at a relocated stop in extremely popular Little Italy, near U. Circle and down in the flats, where a large mixed use residential/retail/office complex is being build along the river- and a new office building will have it's own new station along the Rapid. We're also completing the Euclid Corridor project, one of the first major Bus Rapid Transit lines in the country. Also, a grass roots campaign is looking to restore some commuter rail service...

I'm not saying the rapid is perfect, but it's better than you say... Older systems have more challenges than new, fresh systems like St. Louis' Metrolink. The infrastructure gets old and rundown and must be rehabbed. But more importantly, the 'old/rundown' perception has to be changed.
I am trying to understand this, but you are making a positive comment on Clevelands Rapid Transit right? lol because I saw nothing but positive comments there. I could go on and on about Cleveland's rapid transit, I was saying good things about it, I just brought up ONE good thing about it and that was the Euclid Corridor Project.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Iowa, Des Moines Metro
2,073 posts, read 4,850,292 times
Reputation: 1095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake1256 View Post
I would.. compare taht city to the rest of the big cities of the midwest. Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis.etc. and cleveland's pop is bigger than that of St. Louis's. not counting the Metro, cause where comparing the cities.
but I still voted for STL, it has alot more goign downtown, and even though it's more dangerous than cleveland. more sections rae nicer than that of clevelands.

If this were the theory everyone went by that would make Omaha (pop. 390,007) bigger than Saint Louis (pop. 353,837) which, in terms of city-proper is true, but...Omaha metro has about 825,000 ppl so obviously that's an inaccurate viewpoint. When comparing cities you take into account the metro. Just the way I see it.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Southeast Missouri
5,812 posts, read 16,224,208 times
Reputation: 3321
You kind of have to count the metro area, that's the case in any city. St. Louis Metro has 3 million people roughly.

Jake1256 doesn't always make sense. I think there was a Detroit vs. St. Louis thread a while back and he put down St. Louis any chance he got. His posts sounded ignorant and he made no sense. He said St. Louis has no culture and complained about us not having any tall towers. And he talked about how "most of St. Louis is dangerous and slums", not taking into account that he lives in Detroit. Now, Detroit is not all slums, but I don't know much about it since I have not been there. I doubt Jake has been to St. Louis either, the way he talks about it without any regard for facts.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm just saying, I wouldn't try to make sense of Jake1256.
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Old 01-27-2008, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Chicago
395 posts, read 1,190,778 times
Reputation: 190
I think this thread is comparing two great American cities that played a huge impact on molding america to what it is today. And both were a victim to huge population declines due to our loss of domestic manufacturing.

However, I really think St. Louis takes this stand-off. I believe st. louis has a LOT going for it. Everytime I go down there, it seems to be swinging in the upwards direction. Washington ave. continues to amaze me, and walking down there on a Sat. night makes me feel like im in chicago. Its gaining more and more civic pride every month, which I think is key. Cleveland doesnt have the amount of civic pride as st. louis and I would bet money, if you took everyone in each city to vote how cool their city is, st. louis would win.

I've read in other forums, that St. Louis has a ton of development projects underway, especially restoring downtown. The one thing holding stl back is its waterfront. What are you guys doing about that??? And also the crazy politics there. My friends were telling me about the insane politics the city has especially regarding race and miniscule things other cities dont seem to deal with. Thats the single problem I predict that will hold that city down, if it never does an official comeback.

Most people I talk to from st. louis are obsessed with it, and most of them all plan to move back (and they live in chicago!). On the other hand, i meet so many people from cleveland that do nothing but bash it. I tell them "i just visited there!", and they're like "ohhh why would you do that??". Its just very interesting the different perspectives the natives have for their cities. St. Louis is also geographically better located in that its muuuch further south, and its climate is affected by Gulf winds. It can be 70 degrees in December in stl. Currently its 19 here in chicago, and 51 in st. louis. thats a 5 hour drive difference! im not saying st. louis is warm in the winter, it snows there and can get really cold too, but its dramatically different from what i experienced, cold/mild winters. So, considering america's new love for warmer climates, i think st. louis wins this one. My prediction is st. louis in the next 20 years will be on America's Best Comeback cities list and a lot of people are going to want to check it out. I personally would invest in st. louis and would not in Cleveland.
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Old 01-27-2008, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Omaha, Ne
884 posts, read 710,769 times
Reputation: 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake1256 View Post
stl, I guess. I really like cleveland more, but I had to do it. and stl has more goign on downtown that cleveland, but still not much. I see alot of posts saying that stl's downtown is jamming, but it's still this little city on a river, with the tallest structure a monument.(should be a building). but then again it does beat out cleveland.
So, who wrote the guidelines saying a cities tallest structure should be a building?

I suppose the Washington Monument shouldn't be the tallest in...What’s that "little" city I'm trying to think of again? Oh yeah, Washington D.C.
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Old 01-27-2008, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Southeast Missouri
5,812 posts, read 16,224,208 times
Reputation: 3321
Steve, refer to my last post about not trying to make sense of Jake1256.

And St. Louis does seem to be on the upswing. Even the North Side is getting some revival.

What's New in Old North
Old North Saint Louis
Urban St. Louis - Index (http://urbanstl.com/index.php - broken link)
Help Save the Mullanphy Emigrant Home

A lot of downtown is being used again. The buildings are old, but they're well built. A lot of them have been standing for 80-100 years.
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Old 01-27-2008, 05:16 PM
 
79 posts, read 373,602 times
Reputation: 36
I thought St. Louis' downtown was really lacking. Kansas City seems like St. Louis' newer, hipper cousin on the other side of the state. Anyway, my vote goes for Cleveland. The lake is nice, the skyline is nicer, and I saw more going on downtown.
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