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Maybe that's what he was saying...but let's be honest: Atlanta sprawls pretty much all over. It's not just outside the 5 core counties. The area West of the Georgia Dome, around Clark Atlanta University looks downright rural. When it comes down to it, Atlanta is the poster-child for sprawl...but that doesn't make it a bad city! There are plenty of redeeming qualities to Atlanta, but urbanity is not one of them. Yes, every city sprawls to an extent, but Atlanta sprawls like no other.
This would be like me saying Boston's winters don't suck. Sure I could sit here and argue that I like the frigid weather, but I know in my heart that it blows to wait for the T on a February morning.
It's a point that needs to be conceded. Instead of fighting this uphill battle, perhaps people should bring other positives about Atlanta to light.
No your just not making sense, 8,000 sq mi with 5+ million, posters act like it's spread evenly, when in 1,800 sq mi is 3.2 million. So ironically Atlanta's entire metro can be the poster child for spraw... OK, but you also have to say in Atlanta's 5 county core is one dense places in the county. Atlanta in 1,800 sq mi is one of the most populated area in the county, top 10. There's no way around that, ever heard of the phrase people lie numbers don't. Around Clark Atlanta how it feels to you doesn't change fact.
The only uphill fight is against you being in denial, because your not even arguing against my facts, your arguing your opinion regardless of the facts. "Argumentum ad lapidem"
I don't understand the "west of the Georgia Dome looks like the country" comment. The sparsest tract, which includes the Georgia Dome, has 2,500 ppsm. The other tracts in the area range from 12,000 to 4,000 ppsm. The household sizes of occupied units is really high.
There is just lots of vacant land due to urban decay in the area. Many of these tracts lost 30%+ of their population in the last decade. So it's really not a good example of sprawl at all. The area isn't particularly attractive, so it's tough to think the gentrification steamroller will make its way over there soon. A bit south near AUC has better prospects.
If you want sprawl, check out Coweta or Barrow County. That's sprawl.
The source I usually use for commercial market info (Grubb-Ellis) actually has the vacancy rate significantly higher, at 22.8%. Surprisingly, Buckhead has the highest rate in the city with 27.1% vacancy.
However, John said the national vacancy rate was 13.7%, but according to Grubb-Ellis, the rate is actually 17.7%...so it's not as bad as it sounds.
Unfortunately it does have one of the highest vacancy rates in the nation.
Bottom CBD Vacancy Rates of Major Cities
1. Detroit 30.5%
2. San Jose/Silicon Valley 27% 3. Dallas 24.9%
4. Phoenix 24.2%
5. Miami 23.4%
6. Cleveland 22.4%
7. Atlanta 22.2%
8. St. Louis 19.1%
Bottom Suburban Vacancy Rates of Major Cities
1. Phoenix 29%
2. Chicago 25%
3. Detroit 24.9%
4. Central & Northern New Jersey 23.5%
5. Las Vegas 23.5% 6. Dallas 23.1%
7. Atlanta 22.9%
8. San Francisco 22.1%
So while Atlanta has greater troubles than most in this category, it certainly isn't the worst and it hopefully can only go up from here.
I don’t care about that grid crap, again cities like Boston and many or cities in the world don’t have grids, in fact grids is mainly something in North American cities, most Asian, European, South American and African cities don’t have damn grids. What do they have come is there built denser with more walkabity, Atlanta lacks in this area, but up the side, Atlanta is way more ahead and progress in New Urbanism and have alot more plans than Houston and DFW do. One thing different from Atlanta leaders from DFW and Houston leaders plan, Is leaders in Atlanta are trying to reduce and better commutes, Houston and DFW are trying to mainly better commutes. Atlanta leaders are focusing on infilling transit orient corridors and activity centers.
Boston may have one of the worst road systems in the country, but they have a top-notch mass transit system to make up for that. Atlanta, on the other hand, doesn't. It neither has the grid, nor does it have the top-notch mass transit system. I wouldn't say Atlanta has more plans than Houston and DFW. I'd say both are about the same, with Houston and DFW being a little ahead, due to the way they are built, especially Houston. And you know, Houston was the only major American metro to reduce congestion since 2000, and DFW has a ton of freeway projects going on now to reduce it. It's wrong to say it's just Atlanta, which is the worst of the three as far as commutes go. Houston has light rail lines currently under construction, and Dallas just recently completed their last expansion. I'm just not seeing what Atlanta is doing differently and personally, I think it's behind the other two.
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And sorry about what? These were some future plans there for fixing transit issues. If this pass it’s will be biggest transportation investment in Georgia history yes over the creating of Hartsfield-Jackson. Now Georgia has a gas tax, that only goes to roads and it’s often metro Atlanta paying for the rest of the state and the state does a poor job helping metro Atlanta. The Transportation Investment Act call for 12 regional tax that go to transportation in general only to that region. There’s over 437 summit projects now for the Atlanta region. widening roads, road and Freeways’ Interchange Improvements, Streetscapes, rapid bus, Bridge Replacement, New Interchange, Bicycle and Pedestrian, sidewalk and trails. And best part it’s regional cohesive.
If this pass you go through the 5 core counties on rail, Note Marta is already Fulton and Dekalb.
Fulton to Clayton
TIA-CL-002 Atlanta to Macon commuter Rail
Fulton to Cobb
TIA-C0-035 Midtown to Cumberland
TIA-CO-008 Cumberland to Acworth
Dekalb to Gwinnett
TIA GW-032 Doraville Marta station, light rail to Oakcliff Rd
TIA GW -033 oak cliff Rd to Gwinnett village
TIA GW 034 Gwinnett to Indian trail road park
TIA GW-035 Indian Trail Park to Gwinnett Place
TIA GW-036 Gwinnett Place to Gwinnett Area
TIA DK-058 Doraville to Perimeter Center to Cumberland
TIA M 026 Clifton Corridor Transit Midtown to Emory
So DFW and Houston have more Freeways but Atlanta will remain ahead in alterative transit and New Urbanism.
You sure about regional cohesiveness? There are so many counties and cities in metro Atlanta, that it makes it hard. Even DFW is experiencing the same thing. Houston does not since Metro has such a huge coverage area. It's the old Metro's incompetence and a few politicians that screwed Houston over. Without that, Houston's transit would be much better. But, don't act like Atlanta is the only one that is expanding alternative transit. The only area Atlanta is ahead in is heavy rail and you can't take that away from Atlanta.
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Again like I, you don't know the future and by Houston pass, Houston is the number city to say you don't know. Also this again, why does Atlanta has to be king of something theirs already many industries Atlanta ahead of Houston and DFW while Atlanta not even the king of those. I believe were better off trying to improve industries across the boad then trying to find a niche. But one of falures was the over housing expectation. That cast over into over industries. So leaders are looking at how to grow more recession proof industries, example medical. One of the reasons Houston did so good is because energy with rising gas prices and medical. Thomas Oliver: Medical industry is Atlanta's next growth driver *| ajc.com
What?
Not sure what "many" industries Atlanta is ahead of than Houston and DFW. It may be ahead in some industries for Houston and some for DFW, but I wouldn't say many. The same could be said the other way around. I'm just looking at things like population growth, job growth, and GDP. It seems during the 90s, all three cities were going up the stairs one by one. Then, in the late 90s on into the 2000s, Houston and DFW starting skipping a step, while Atlanta was still going up one by one. Those two greatly increased their leads on population (DFW is now has 1M more people than Metro Atlanta and Houston increased its lead from 400K to 600K), and job growth isn't even close. No one can predict the future, but there is a trend going on.
I really don't understand this P****** contest. All three of these metros offer basically the same amenities. All 3 of these cities sprawl just as bad regardless of zoning regulations. They all feel the same. The only difference is GDP and land topography and being in different states. How big a city "feels" really has no bearing on how big the city really is or how succesful the city is. Come on people WTF!!!
Notice in my question I never did try to put these 3 cities up against one another, this thread was simply started out of reaction from a Houston forum thread where Houstonians were bragging about how "huge" Houston felt compared to ATL and DFW even to the point of saying that at some points of driving through the city they felt as if they were in a city of 10+ million metro, so in reality this never was a comparison of the 3 metros but just a way to bring back Houston boosters/homers back to earth and by the outcome of the poll it seemed to have worked
Notice in my question I never did try to put these 3 cities up against one another, this thread was simply started out of reaction from a Houston forum thread where Houstonians were bragging about how "huge" Houston felt compared to ATL and DFW even to the point of saying that at some points of driving through the city they felt as if they were in a city of 10+ million metro, so in reality this never was a comparison of the 3 metros but just a way to bring back Houston boosters/homers back to earth and by the outcome of the poll it seemed to have worked
In all honesty for me Houston does feel bigger than ATL and DFW driving through.
The downtown areas may not feel drastically different, but a two hour drive through the metro in Houston feels bigger than the other two.
That was all the people were saying but you got offended that DFW would seem smaller. Furthermore, you created a shoddy poll where you can only vote in one category, some one created a proper poll and go see the results there. Next time make a proper poll dude.
Houston may be just like the other two off the highways, but on the highways the development makes it seem bigger than the other two.
and you know very well DFW was dead last in the poll until someone made fake accounts and started voting for Dallas. That happened the same day Dallas was last in the best Texas downtown thread but shot up 25 votes in half an hour with fake votes.
In all honesty for me Houston does feel bigger than ATL and DFW driving through.
The downtown areas may not feel drastically different, but a two hour drive through the metro in Houston feels bigger than the other two.
That was all the people were saying but you got offended that DFW would seem smaller. Furthermore, you created a shoddy poll where you can only vote in one category, some one created a proper poll and go see the results there. Next time make a proper poll dude.
Houston may be just like the other two off the highways, but on the highways the development makes it seem bigger than the other two.
and you know very well DFW was dead last in the poll until someone made fake accounts and started voting for Dallas. That happened the same day Dallas was last in the best Texas downtown thread but shot up 25 votes in half an hour with fake votes.
It was probably dtownboogie. He just seem like he would do something like that.
C'mon guys, I don't want to make it sound like I'm bashing Atlanta. I like the city...but you're making it hard by being so stubborn. Ughhhhhhhh fine.
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Originally Posted by chiatldal
No your just not making sense, 8,000 sq mi with 5+ million, posters act like it's spread evenly, when in 1,800 sq mi is 3.2 million. So ironically Atlanta's entire metro can be the poster child for spraw... OK, but you also have to say in Atlanta's 5 county core is one dense places in the county. Atlanta in 1,800 sq mi is one of the most populated area in the county, top 10. There's no way around that, ever heard of the phrase people lie numbers don't. Around Clark Atlanta how it feels to you doesn't change fact.
The only uphill fight is against you being in denial, because your not even arguing against my facts, your arguing your opinion regardless of the facts. "Argumentum ad lapidem"
I'm not arguing regardless of fact.
Basically every city sprawls to some degree at 1,800 sq miles. Atlanta is far from different in this regard. Density isn't everything when talking about sprawl. Much of it has to do with development style, which is usually directly correlated to period of major development (which for Atlanta has occurred mainly during the sprawl era). However, as of 2000 it had one of the least dense urban areas in the United States...in fact it was the 46th densest UA, just ahead of Charlotte.
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Originally Posted by testa50
I don't understand the "west of the Georgia Dome looks like the country" comment. The sparsest tract, which includes the Georgia Dome, has 2,500 ppsm. The other tracts in the area range from 12,000 to 4,000 ppsm. The household sizes of occupied units is really high.
There is just lots of vacant land due to urban decay in the area. Many of these tracts lost 30%+ of their population in the last decade. So it's really not a good example of sprawl at all. The area isn't particularly attractive, so it's tough to think the gentrification steamroller will make its way over there soon. A bit south near AUC has better prospects.
If you want sprawl, check out Coweta or Barrow County. That's sprawl.
This is probably the most boggling statistic of all! It also shows why Atlanta is considered to be the poster-child of sprawl. The area you're referring to is in the most prime location in the city! It's located directly next to the Georgia Dome, Downtown Atlanta, the Georgia Aquarium and Atlanta's premier park, Centennial Olympic Park.
Plenty of cities have blighted areas in their borders and that's fine! But how in the world did this go undeveloped (or according to you, lost 30% of the population) in the past decade when the metro area added over 1,000,000 people! How can you argue against Atlanta being the capital of sprawl when out of your 1,020,879 new residents, 99.6543% of them moved into the suburbs!
How can you defend this?
Again, I don't dislike Atlanta...but it has this reputation for a reason.
It was probably dtownboogie. He just seem like he would do something like that.
lol, he probably did do it. he has been touting those poll results ever since saying it proved a point. Only thing it proves is that DFW folks feel the need to make fake accounts to one up Houston. lmao
Basically every city sprawls to some degree at 1,800 sq miles. Atlanta is far from different in this regard.
well the point he is making is that people don't say the city is sprawling more that the metro is sprawling, but at 1800 sq miles ATL, Houston, DFW are at the same density as Boston or Philly
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Density isn't everything when talking about sprawl. Much of it has to do with development style, which is usually directly correlated to period of major development (which for Atlanta has occurred mainly during the sprawl era). However, as of 2000 it had one of the least dense urban areas in the United States...in fact it was the 46th densest UA, just ahead of Charlotte.
that is a bit unfair. these urban areas include tiny cities of population of 50K or less.
Woodland CA for example was like the 500th biggest urban area in the US with 49K people, but at 3 sq miles it was the 4th most dense (ahead of NY). If you knock off the tiny areas considered urban then ATL does fairly well. FYI Philly comes shows up way down the list too (after Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, LA and a host of other sunbelt areas.
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