U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S. > City vs. City
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 08-17-2013, 12:24 AM
 
Location: Earth
2,549 posts, read 3,112,959 times
Reputation: 1198

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by grapico View Post
He's talking about the dense street and cobblestone road look of going on forever I'm sure.
The link nei posted is actually Greene Street. A lot of the buildings along that street were built in 1900 according to Emporis. The photo I posted shows the Monadnock Building (left) built in 1891 designed by Burnham and Root (1891) 2nd phase by Holabird and Roche (1893) which is more famous than any of those buildings along Greene Street rising much higher at 16 stories. Greene Street you see in the link ends between Houston and Canal streets which runs a length of around 0.43 miles which is about the same length of Chicago's N. Milwaukee with wall to wall street level development between N. Damen and N. Walcott Avenues. Now not all the buildings along North Milwaukee average 5 stories like Green Street but there is one part that has 4 stories that I've seen so far.

N. Milwaukee buildings of 4 stories: http://goo.gl/maps/d1zzb

It was quite common for a lot of the cities back in the day to use stone or brick for many of their streets before asphalt became the standard. Fire stairs attached to buildings were also common back then (Chicago has them too > http://goo.gl/maps/JvBnS) Charleston and even Birmingham had it. You can find cities that still have them. I'm not sure if Chicago still has any streets left from what I can tell but looking at some old photos it seems they used brick.

Morris Avenue, Birmingham,AL even the side walk still has it's stone still intact. Here's a photo I shot.


Greene Street may give you an illusion that it runs forever but so does N. Milwaukee Avenue which actually runs a longer length than Greene Street past N. Walcott towards downtown. I'm sure there are other streets with wall to wall street level density that are much longer than Greene street in other areas of NYC. Chicago does have some of these kind of streets even though New York has far more by comparison. Parking lots aren't just evident in Chicago as you only pointed out they can also be found in NYC. All cities in America have "suburban type" development even though NYC city has more urban development. However, there is enough urban neighborhoods for urbanites to enjoy in Chicago not just NYC. NYC isn't the only urban place in the country since a majority of urban residents live in other cities instead of NYC combined in population. It would be boring if all pizza was flat but having a different style of pizza may be better to other people. My earlier point again is that being bigger doesn't mean it's better to all people. What looks good or bad in either city is subjective. There are Chicagoans who wouldn't care for NYC as there are some in NY who couldn't live in Chicago. Then there are some who are more open minded to both cities.


Quote:
Your pic is the loop, his is just a neighborhood. While Chicago has a pretty big downtown packed with skyscrapers architecturally that somewhat resembles the build style and layout of Midtown Manhattan but smaller, along with NYC having another Downtown... the urban neighborhoods is where Chicago gets left in the dust.
And that wall of buildings doesn't go on forever that you posted. It goes like 5 blocks then is broken up by parking lots on both sides and the river.
http://goo.gl/maps/8XwTM

And this is at the ground level between the west and east walkup to that station.

http://goo.gl/maps/7pdUw

If you go the other way it goes 2 blocks then broken up by surface parking lots on both sides again.
http://goo.gl/maps/Oiixc
No, Chicago does not look like his picture, anywhere in the city.

going north is better, and where you shot your picture straight down dearborn, but again, you are starting at the bottom edge of the loop then going north across the river through river north...that is downtown, not a neighborhood.

and comparing apples to apples, the looks down 6th ave, 5th ave, broadway, etc. are wayyy longer streetwall canyons in person.
Sure we could cherry pick all day about suburban development in either city. Most of us already know NY has more urban development but they also have suburban as well in the city. If we're going to show parking lots then let's take a look at New York's.

When you reach the end of Greene Street at Canal there is also a parking lot. > http://goo.gl/maps/7QktQ

Anyone saying parking lots and other suburban development don't exist in NYC or people don't drive there need some reality glasses.

Driving from Greene Street there are plenty of places to park like here. NYC is not immune from parking lots and garages.


Large parking lots along Delancey just before the WB Bridge. -> http://goo.gl/maps/lyYB2

Bay Plaza is a huge strip mall in the Bronx (not saying Chicago doesn't have any in the city either) Come on let's not kid ourselves since not all of NYC is Greene Street at every corner we turn. Even NYC has fallen victim to suburban development even though Chicago has more of it. This sure isn't Fordham Road when it comes to shopping in other parts of the Bronx.
Here's a photo I shot of it.


What it looks like at the strip mall. > http://goo.gl/maps/ikuYu

More stripmall with surface parking in NYC:

Storey Avenue Bronx > http://goo.gl/maps/H8300

E. 174th Street > http://goo.gl/maps/XihaR

I can post more but I think you get the idea. Both cities are guilty of having suburban characteristics. May be less in NYC but no city in America is immune from it.

 
Old 08-17-2013, 09:29 AM
 
Location: roaming gnome
12,391 posts, read 23,766,008 times
Reputation: 5608
Chicago has far more parking lots than NYC man... I know NYC has some but Chicago is on another level. So cherry picking them in NYC is not doing much. You don't have to cherry pick in Chicago, just walk in any direction and you will pass several along with many businesses having small surface lots in front instead of built out to the street. I could find like 40 in a 1 mile radius of the loop proper. Even in Wicker Park there are strip malls just a few blocks from where you are posting going south on damen and nw on milwaukee and that is a common aesthetic throughout almost all chicago neighborhoods, I know the area well there and used to live in Printers Row which is one of the most urban areas in the city despite having some commuter lots.

From the spot you posted in Wicker Park... definitely cool night life, but walk a few blocks and you will see the Chicago development style that is prevalent throughout most of the city. Wicker Park is one of the close in neighborhoods, not even talking about anywhere far out, as you know.

2 blocks northwest on milwaukee
http://goo.gl/maps/Qb1Tz

2 blocks southon damen another strip mall
http://goo.gl/maps/TZYAR

4 blocks away there is a big box Kmart and Jewel Osco.
http://goo.gl/maps/bJ1tc

http://goo.gl/maps/MGidz

Then straight from there you run into mixed in SFH throughout the neighborhood

http://goo.gl/maps/wXz3O

Though this build style is more prevalent
http://goo.gl/maps/PMyyl

I'm open minded about both but the feel and development style is easily different, particularly in Manhattan. I've gone back and forth between them the last 3 summers paying attention to all things urban planning, sidewalks, ped activity, new bike lanes, etc. and every time I go the more different they feel. Chicago might have a similar "look" from a street view down a corridor but walk a few blocks and NYC is still similar while you run into the stuff I am posting in Chicago.

Last edited by grapico; 08-17-2013 at 09:53 AM..
 
Old 08-17-2013, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Earth
2,549 posts, read 3,112,959 times
Reputation: 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by grapico View Post
Chicago has far more parking lots than NYC man... I know NYC has some but Chicago is on another level. So cherry picking them in NYC is not doing much. You don't have to cherry pick in Chicago, just walk in any direction and you will pass several along with many businesses having small surface lots in front instead of built out to the street. I could find like 40 in a 1 mile radius of the loop proper. Even in Wicker Park there are strip malls just a few blocks from where you are posting going south on damen and nw on milwaukee and that is a common aesthetic throughout almost all chicago neighborhoods, I know the area well there and used to live in Printers Row.
I'm not denying that Chicago has more parking lots/strip malls but that doesn't exempt NYC having them in the city either was my earlier point. There are even single family homes in both cities even though Chicago has more. Don't tempt me.

Quote:
I'm open minded about both but the feel and development style is easily different, particularly in Manhattan. I've gone back and forth between them the last 3 summers paying attention to all things urban planning, sidewalks, ped activity, new bike lanes, etc. and every time I go the more different they feel.
Of course, they will feel and look different just like flat and deep dish style pizzas. Why would anyone want one or the other have the same personality? It would be silly to say the French Quarter should be more like the Vegas strip. I wouldn't want that. Let Chicago be Chicago, New Orleans be New Orleans and NYC be NYC. Just appreciate them for what they are. It's good that they are different though especially their urban character.

Last edited by urbanologist; 08-17-2013 at 09:53 AM..
 
Old 08-17-2013, 09:44 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
45,740 posts, read 39,621,992 times
Reputation: 14671
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist View Post
I'm not denying that Chicago has more parking lots/strip malls but that doesn't exempt NYC having them in the city either was my earlier point. There are even single family homes in both cities even though Chicago has more. Don't tempt me.
Does anyone think NYC lacks surface parking lots, strip malls and detached homes entirely? This is a silly thing to argue against, almost every city does, even many European ones like London (though not right in the center).
 
Old 08-17-2013, 09:55 AM
 
Location: roaming gnome
12,391 posts, read 23,766,008 times
Reputation: 5608
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist View Post
I'm not denying that Chicago has more parking lots/strip malls but that doesn't exempt NYC having them in the city either was my earlier point. There are even single family homes in both cities even though Chicago has more. Don't tempt me.



Of course, they will feel and look different just like flat and deep dish style pizzas. Why would anyone want one or the other have the same personality? It would be silly to say the French Quarter should be more like the Vegas strip. I wouldn't want that. Let Chicago be Chicago, New Orleans be New Orleans and NYC be NYC. Just appreciate them for what they are. It's good that they are different though especially their urban character.
The whole point was Chicago doesn't have the neighborhoods or a built up area like Manhattan, which it doesn't.

On the second point, I am one of those who thinks the big box building and strip mall development style should stop in Chicago along with some of the chose build styles, to me there is nothing to like about those aspects of Chicago, but I'm sure people who like driving their cars to these places feel different. I just try to to ignore they are even there. B/C if we are being honest, that is why they are there, to cater to people driving cars. Chicago has so much potential still yet I think developers over the last 20-30 years have littered the city with suburban like features and they stick out like a sore thumb. There is a small group of Chicago people who feel the same way, though I think it is still a minority. All these new developers and investors when they start gentrifying a neighborhood practically demand their new building has side parking lots, and often the few people in the neighborhood or aldermans do nothing about it, it's insane.

Chicago would still have a different personality and vibe even if fills in everything nicely, nothing to worry about. The areas I'm talking about largely detract from this, others might like it, oh well.

Last edited by grapico; 08-17-2013 at 10:17 AM..
 
Old 08-17-2013, 10:02 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
45,740 posts, read 39,621,992 times
Reputation: 14671
Quote:
Originally Posted by grapico View Post

On the second point, I am one of those who thinks the big box building should stop in Chicago along with some of the chose build styles, to me there is nothing to like about those aspects of Chicago, but I'm sure that like driving their cars to these places feel different. B/C if we are being honest, that is why they are there, to cater to people driving cars. Chicago has so much potential still yet I think developers over the last 20-30 years have littered the city with suburban like features and they stick out like a sore thumb.
I commented to a friend (who moved to Chicago from NYC about some of that. In particular, the shopping with the Osco near Division in Wicker Park. Her comment: "Chicago acts like a city when it needs to, and a suburb when it's more convenient".
 
Old 08-17-2013, 10:20 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
45,740 posts, read 39,621,992 times
Reputation: 14671
Quote:
Originally Posted by grapico View Post
He's talking about the dense street and cobblestone road look of going on forever I'm sure. Your pic is the loop, his is just a neighborhood.
Yep, that's what I meant. A streetwall of 4-6 story buildings, on a relatively narrow street in a non-high rise neighborhood. Together the cobblestone and the decor, giving a vaguely "old world" look —*a couple posters in the Europe thought that view could pass for Central Europe, excluding the stairwells. Though as urbanologist correctly point out, they don't go on forever in the sense that Greene Street isn't that long. Of course if you go to the next street over they could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist View Post
The link nei posted is actually Greene Street. A lot of the buildings along that street were built in 1900 according to Emporis. The photo I posted shows the Monadnock Building (left) built in 1891 designed by Burnham and Root (1891) 2nd phase by Holabird and Roche (1893) which is more famous than any of those buildings along Greene Street rising much higher at 16 stories. Greene Street you see in the link ends between Houston and Canal streets which runs a length of around 0.43 miles which is about the same length of Chicago's N. Milwaukee with wall to wall street level development between N. Damen and N. Walcott Avenues. Now not all the buildings along North Milwaukee average 5 stories like Green Street but there is one part that has 4 stories that I've seen so far.
Which is why that's rather different, it's more of a high rise district, Greene street is not. I'm sure Chicago may have a few spots similar, but I thought that that Soho street has a unique look. Just because the street isn't that long doesn't mean the buildings don't continue on. Broadway is a good example.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Broad...,1.2,,0,-14.46

Quote:
Sure we could cherry pick all day about suburban development in either city. Most of us already know NY has more urban development but they also have suburban as well in the city. If we're going to show parking lots then let's take a look at New York's.

When you reach the end of Greene Street at Canal there is also a parking lot. > http://goo.gl/maps/7QktQ

Anyone saying parking lots and other suburban development don't exist in NYC or people don't drive there need some reality glasses.

Driving from Greene Street there are plenty of places to park like here. NYC is not immune from parking lots and garages.
No American city is free of surface parking lots, and no one claimed NYC has none. Going out of the Loop, into River North, West and South Loop it's not hard to find a number. In Manhattan, they're mostly relegated to the edges of the island by the river, well away from the busiest corridors, which below 59th street tend to be within a few blocks from Broadway. The 41st and 11th avenue lot is a couple of miles from Greene Street. Parking for a day in a local garage in Soho, Greenwich Village or Union Square may cost you $30. People coming by car is a small fraction of visitors (maybe not for some business related pick ups and deliveries, though). It's not hard for a visitor to notice the difference between the two. Perhaps someone from Paris would find even the few parking lots in Manhattan surprising. That doesn't mean Paris lack parking, it just puts it underground, as in this supermarket:

https://maps.google.fr/maps?q=rue+de...e+reuilly&z=18

I can't think of any supermarket that has that in Manhattan, though I may have missed that.

=============================================

The more interesting question is why does Chicago not have blocks continuous buildings outside the Loop? While it's nowhere as old as Manhattan, I showed earlier it's older The Bronx. The areas surrounding the Loop must be some of the oldest districts of Chicago, in a centralized city why wouldn't there be a solid wall of old buildings there? Even San Francisco, of a similar era or slightly newer than Chicago seems to have less obvious surface lots surrounding downtown (excluding south of Market). I walked around River North a couple weeks ago. Plenty of new high rise buildings, some old brick buildings, some short buildings and some scattered lots. All looked very new, I imagined the streetscape must have been completely different 50 years ago. Here's one view:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=River...12,229,,0,8.49

Looks like the background was 3-4 story buildings. Perhaps many got torn down and replaced with high rises when the market got around to it, or short buildings (like the Hooters) and surface lots? A clue comes from wikipedia:

Near North Side, Chicago - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

River North previously was named Smokey Hollow around the turn of the 20th century due to the many factories and forges in the area. The smoke was often so thick that sunlight was blocked. At the time Smokey Hollow was a major transportation hub with railroad tracks linking the ports along the Chicago River with the surrounding areas. The Merchandise Mart still has railroad tracks underneath the building. Massive coal bins were throughout the neighborhood both bringing coal into the area from ships and storage for all the ships. The Merchandise Mart was a major storage warehouse for goods. Montgomery Ward had a major transportation and storage facility in River North.

I assume the South Loop is similar.

So, Chicago rather unpleasant industrial districts right adjacent to downtown. Downtown was unpleasant to live or near. The well off did not live right by downtown, but with some buffer to the north, in the houses and buildings of neighborhoods like Lincoln Park and Lakeview and could get to work using what is today's Brown Line or streetcars*. Once industry faltered, perhaps the big factory buildings were torn and left with vacant space to build on?

Did Manhattan have industry right near Downtown? Yes. But the industries were different, lending them to small-scale production and textiles that fit in with the streetscape and could be easily reused. The Greene Street image I posted was formerly industrial or warehouses:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=New+Y...,,0,-4.91&z=17

Here's another former factory building further north on Greene Street. The Brown Building, owned by NYU.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=brown...,0,-17.41&z=16

Was partially used by the garment industry. The top 3 floors were the site of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire in 1911. The southern edge of Midtown was the site of wholesale trade and clothing production, it's called the Garment District. Part of it is now the certain for wholesale Jewelery Trade:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Broad...,93.35,,0,6.81

So my thought is Manhattan tended to use similar building for industrial and mixed them together, so there was not an industrial section that later got demolished and looked vacant. The most parking lots are by the rivers. The biggest employer of Manhattan at one time was the ports. Some derelict port buildings were probably demolished and turned to surface lots. The most spectacular port building is 111 Eighth Avenue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
This enormous (2.9 million square feet) New York City building was an originally a warehouse and got converted to an office building. It was for storing and processing the goods coming off the docks, with elevators that could fit a truck. Built by the Port Authority, it was their headquarters until the World Trade Center was built.

Daytonian in Manhattan: An Art Deco Behometh - 111 8th Avenue

It's now Google's NYC office, which it bought for $1.9 million

File:Inland Terminal 1 Eighth Avenue.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm sure Chicago has industrial reuse buildings, but I suspect the type of industry as well as a demolition as many older ones is responsible for many of the surface lots surrounding downtown and the rather scattered appearance of the streets besides just being newer and lower density than NYC. Chicago must have segegrated its industry more than NYC as well.

*One other thing I noticed about Chicago is that while it has many high rise residential buildings, it doesn't have a large amount older "pre-war" buildings common to much of Manhattan, especially by Central Park. I saw a couple but not many. In say, Lincoln Park, what I found were some small apartment buildings that didn't seem like they were intended to be high end, unlike Manhattan pre-war buildings or many Chicago newer lake high rises. My guess is that since density was much lower, the urban well-to-do mostly did not live in big apartment building but in Chicago greystone (attached or detached with little separation). And big apartment buildings were generally not popular with well-off families.

The wealthy of Manhattan avoided large apartment buildings for a while, the usual well-off residence was a brownstone or similar old row house. But population pressures made them impractical. If New York City didn't grow as much in the late 19th century, likely the Upper half of Manhattan would have been filled with far more brownstones than today, many of which were demolished.

Last edited by nei; 08-17-2013 at 11:56 AM..
 
Old 08-17-2013, 10:21 AM
 
1,750 posts, read 2,802,820 times
Reputation: 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist View Post
I'm not denying that Chicago has more parking lots/strip malls but that doesn't exempt NYC having them in the city either was my earlier point. There are even single family homes in both cities even though Chicago has more. Don't tempt me.



Of course, they will feel and look different just like flat and deep dish style pizzas. Why would anyone want one or the other have the same personality? It would be silly to say the French Quarter should be more like the Vegas strip. I wouldn't want that. Let Chicago be Chicago, New Orleans be New Orleans and NYC be NYC. Just appreciate them for what they are. It's good that they are different though especially their urban character.
What is your point? You keep stating the obvious.
 
Old 08-17-2013, 11:49 AM
 
1,899 posts, read 2,168,221 times
Reputation: 1845
Default OMG.......Manhattan has parking lots!!!!!!!! Is it still a city??????

[quote=nei;31002976]
no American city is free of surface parking lots, and no one claimed NYC has none. In Manhattan, they're mostly relegated to the edges of the island by the river, well away from the busiest corridors, which below 59th street tend to be within a few blocks from Broadway. The 41st and 11th avenue lot is a couple of miles from Greene Street. Parking for a day in a local garage in Soho, Greenwich Village or Union Square may cost you $30. People coming by car is a small fraction of visitors (maybe not for some business related pick ups and deliveries, though).


The more interesting question is why does Chicago not have blocks continuous buildings outside the Loop? While it's nowhere as old as Manhattan, I showed earlier it's older The Bronx. The areas surrounding the Loop must be some of the oldest districts of Chicago, in a centralized city why wouldn't there be a solid wall of old buildings there? Even San Francisco, of a similar era or slightly newer than Chicago seems to have less obvious surface lots surrounding downtown (excluding south of Market). I walked around River North. Plenty of new high rise buildings, some old brick buildings, some short buildings and some scattered lots. All looked very new, I imagined the streetscape must have been completely different 50 years ago. Here's one view:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=River...12,229,,0,8.49

Looks like the background was 3-4 story buildings. Perhaps many got torn down and replaced with high rises when the market got around to it, or short buildings (like the Hooters) and surface lots? A clue comes from wikipedia:

Near North Side, Chicago - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

River North previously was named Smokey Hollow around the turn of the 20th century due to the many factories and forges in the area. The smoke was often so thick that sunlight was blocked. At the time Smokey Hollow was a major transportation hub with railroad tracks linking the ports along the Chicago River with the surrounding areas. The Merchandise Mart still has railroad tracks underneath the building. Massive coal bins were throughout the neighborhood both bringing coal into the area from ships and storage for all the ships. The Merchandise Mart was a major storage warehouse for goods. Montgomery Ward had a major transportation and storage facility in River North.
 
Old 08-18-2013, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Earth
2,549 posts, read 3,112,959 times
Reputation: 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Does anyone think NYC lacks surface parking lots, strip malls and detached homes entirely? This is a silly thing to argue against, almost every city does, even many European ones like London (though not right in the center).
Yes, it's silly but since grapico wanted to bring up the parking lots argument as if it only existed in Chicago I thought I would counter by revealing some of New York's as most cities have them in which you are correct. However, Chicago has more urban characteristics to the city than just parking lots which grapico missed. Parking lots aren't always at every corner you turn through out Chicago. That's not always the case especially with all the neighborhoods with cars parked along the street with no visible drive way or parking lot.

[/url]

If I want stripmalls, parking lots and garages I know exactly where to go in either city to find them. If he had paid attention I had already acknowledged that Chicago has more of them even though NYC is also guilty of having them as well. While Chicago has Jewel Osco NYC has Pathmark .

http://goo.gl/maps/4VAfX

There's more to NYC other than Manhattan. Some people may think..Oh, single family homes can't exist in NYC..Oh, yes they can. Chicago isn't exempt either. Let me give you some examples of suburban style single family homes (with vinyl siding) in New York City. Let's start with the Bronx (too many to list but here's some of them). Some of these homes even have swimming pools in the back. New Yorkers want some suburban convenience as well.

Bronx:
E. 170th and Charlotte Street
http://goo.gl/maps/rMJxE
Crotona Park East
http://goo.gl/maps/JwwMO
Waring Avenue
http://goo.gl/maps/3bRwh
McDonald's fast food drive thru
http://goo.gl/maps/ppWrl
NYC has the big box stores and stripmalls as well.
http://goo.gl/maps/vYUjg
You even have a Home Depot
http://goo.gl/maps/n7E6U

Queens:

166th Street
http://goo.gl/maps/A9iuJ
170 Street
http://goo.gl/maps/REjzv
57th Steet
McDonald's fast food drive thru
http://goo.gl/maps/7TCmV

Brooklyn:
Marlborough Road
http://goo.gl/maps/XHpVQ
E. 11th Street
http://goo.gl/maps/xAgjM
78th Street
http://goo.gl/maps/ihz2j

Staten Island speaks for itself

As for England, you're correct. Not every place there is going to look like a tight compact intricate urban maze. Here's a photo I shot.


ADSA is sort of England's version of our Walmart or Super Target as the national big box chain. Yes, they got them too. I actually like some of the stuff they carry though. Interesting. A bit more modern looking than your typical Walmart if you ask me.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top