How can anyone argue Philly is more urban than San Francisco? (crime, live)

[john_starks]

Originally Posted by jaredk

NYC wins

biggest, best, urbanest. new york is the center of the world. we all know it. don't hate.

yeah, its sad to fight for 3rd,4th,5th,6th place

[Nineties Flava]

Originally Posted by john_starks

yeah, its sad to fight for 3rd,4th,5th,6th place

... then why are you in this thread?

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

This is not my problem.

That was meant as a response to your "we would be denser but we have industrial land" statement. My point was that we have more parkland, more abandoned factories, and more boarded up neighborhoods than Oakland, which drags our numbers down as well. Given the large number of neighborhoods in Oakland with density in the tens of thousands, there obviously must be quite a few areas of the city that have less than that if the density of the whole entire city is only 7,000.

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

If we talk about density and urbanity without making desirability a major component as well, then we are simply adding up numbers for nothing.

Livability of these dense areas should be considered too.

So "urbanity" (is that a word, btw?) only matters when the residents are affluent?

Not every neighborhood is meant to be a playground for college educated 20-somethings. Most Philadelphians grow up in urban, regular ass neighborhoods. For all of the great things about San Francisco, I've never met anyone that actually grew up in the city, or grew up in a neighborhood anything like the ones you guys post about on here. Most people I meet from that area grew up in towns out in the East Bay, which obviously are not nearly as urban as many of the parts of Philadelphia most of us grew up in. When I meet someone who actually lives in San Francisco, they're usually young, affluent or both.

I dated a girl who was from Richmond for a year. I went out to meet her family and everything. When she came to visit my family, the first thing she said was "You grew up in this neighborhood?" I said, "Yeah." And she said, "How did you manage to live all crammed in between people?" Honestly, I had never thought about it because all I've ever known were rowhouses. To her, the the fact that people, middle-class people at that, raised families in dense neighborhoods, near busy thoroughfares, was mind-boggling. In SF, I get the sense that urban living is reserved for the very wealthy or the very poor. Urban living is more or less a fad that wears thin once you have kids. It's not like that in Philly at all. Many middle-class people will grow up at 59th and Haverford and move to 65th and Lansdowne. That makes it an interesting place, I think, because it makes the concept of "the block" a very powerful one.

It's not just a bunch of kids who take dumps over the city for a few years and then roll out to more suburban pastures. We actually raised "city kids" in Philly.

[Nineties Flava]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

That was meant as a response to your "we would be denser but we have industrial land" statement. My point was that we have more parkland, more abandoned factories, and more boarded up neighborhoods than Oakland, which drags our numbers down as well. Given the large number of neighborhoods in Oakland with density in the tens of thousands, there obviously must be quite a few areas of the city that have less than that if the density of the whole entire city is only 7,000.

That would be the Oakland Hills. Most of the hills look like this:


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2196/img1425yv.jpg (broken link)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7424/img0892hk.jpg (broken link)


The Oakland Hills are a huge expanse that make up a full fourth of the city's population; a large amount of it is parkland (Redwood Park, Lake Chabot, Knowland Park, Lake Temescal, etc). To give you an idea of how large they are, this picture:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6118/img2145k.jpg (broken link)

only shows about 1/4 of the hills and that's being conservative. The flatlands of Oakland on the other hand are very dense... the flatlands and the hills balance out which results in Oakland's lower density.

So "urbanity" (is that a word, btw?) only matters when the residents are affluent?

Not every neighborhood is meant to be a playground for college educated 20-somethings. Most Philadelphians grow up in urban, regular ass neighborhoods. For all of the great things about San Francisco, I've never met anyone that actually grew up in the city, or grew up in a neighborhood anything like the ones you guys post about on here. Most people I meet from that area grew up in towns out in the East Bay, which obviously are not nearly as urban as many of the parts of Philadelphia most of us grew up in. When I meet someone who actually lives in San Francisco, they're usually young, affluent or both.

I dated a girl who was from Richmond for a year. I went out to meet her family and everything. When she came to visit my family, the first thing she said was "You grew up in this neighborhood?" I said, "Yeah." And she said, "How did you manage to live all crammed in between people?" Honestly, I had never thought about it because all I've ever known were rowhouses. To her, the the fact that people, middle-class people at that, raised families in dense neighborhoods, near busy thoroughfares, was mind-boggling. In SF, I get the sense that urban living is reserved for the very wealthy or the very poor. Urban living is more or less a fad that wears thin once you have kids. It's not like that in Philly at all. Many middle-class people will grow up at 59th and Haverford and move to 65th and Lansdowne. That makes it an interesting place, I think, because it makes the concept of "the block" a very powerful one.

It's not just a bunch of kids who take dumps over the city for a few years and then roll out to more suburban pastures. We actually raised "city kids" in Philly.

That's because Philly is a predominantly middle and working class city... San Francisco's middle class - the people who would care about neighborhood stability - has been attacked by rampant gentrification for the last 40 years. Be wary of letting the same thing happen in your city...


And Oakland is very much a "block" city; that it's a predominantly middle and working class city as well is no accident. While the hills and neighborhoods like Rockridge are certainly ritzy, the heart of Oakland remains in its flatlands...

[cpomp]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

Hahaha, it was a Philly person thats propping up videos from the ghetto defining that as 'urban' but we have more than that over here.

In fact, some of the most desirable neighborhood 12-17 miles from Downtown SF have densities over 10,000 ppsm and are very posh.

Adams Point is a yuppie magnet:



And now we have a clearly defined group of neighborhoods of both Oakland and Berkeley that is a huge swath of 10,000+ppsm

You are really talking out of your ass right now. "Upscale" wasnt even the subject of this thread, and you are very ignorant to think there arent upscale areas in and around philly. As a matter of fact DC baltimore philly new york and boston represent nearly 1/3 of the nations wealth.

[jman650]

Originally Posted by Nineties Flava

... then why are you in this thread?

Lol good question. Why is he in ANY thread when all he says is nonsense crap?

[18Montclair]

*This post is not in the interest of bashing or comparing to Philly or anywhere else, just for whomever is interested as I don't believe this sort of list for Oakland-Berkeley has ever been done before.

Okay, so I have an update based on further research on City-Data:

It turns out that there are connected neighborhoods of 10,000ppsm+ extending all the way into San Leandro(3 neighborhoods connected to Oakland) and Albany(1 neighborhood connected to Berkeley) as well as about 2 dozen other Oakland neighborhoods that are connected to the former list of areas.

the area of 10,000+persons per square mile Extends over an area that is 18 Miles North to South from Downtown Albany to Farrelly Pond, San Leandro.


Here is the updated list of Oakland, Berkeley, San Leandro and Albany connected neighborhoods with a density of 10,000+ppsm
Neighborhood, City, Population Per Square Mile
Oak Tree Neighborhood, Oakland 34,447
Gold Coast Neighborhood, Oakland 29,212
Telegraph Ave neighborhood, Berkeley 28,188
Adams Point Neighborhood, Oakland 26,632
Clinton Neighborhood, Oakland 25,677
Ivy Hill Neighborhood, Oakland 22,866
St Elizabeth Neighborhood, Oakland 21,327
Merritt Neighborhood, Oakland 19,957
Harrington Neighborhood, Oakland 19,951
Patten Neighborhood, Oakland 19,950
Highland Terrace Neighborhood, Oakland 18,625
Allendale Neighborhood, Oakland 18,880
Seminary Neighborhood, Oakland 17,899
Tuxedo Neighborhood, Oakland 17,502
Rancho San Antonio Neighborhood, Oakland 17,290
School Neighborhood, Oakland, CA 16,916
Hawthorne Neighborhood, Oakland 16,752
Meadow Brook Neighborhood, Oakland 16,772
Grand Lake Neighborhood, Oakland 16,716
Bella Vista Neighborhood, Oakland 16,713
Chinatown Neighborhood, Oakland 16,554
Southside Neighborhood, Berkeley 16,438
Fremont Neighborhood, Oakland 16,096
Oakland Ave/Harrison St Neighborhood, Oakland 15,980
Cox Neighborhood, Oakland 15,674
Hegenberger Neighborhood, Oakland 15,406
Fairfax Business Neighborhood, Oakland 15,242
Sausal Creek Neighborhood, Oakland 15,138
Peralta Hacienda Neighborhood, Oakland 14,811
Jefferson Neighborhood, Oakland 14,807
Wentworth-Holland Neighborhood, Oakland 14,794
Elmwood Neighborhood, Berkeley 14,603
Webster Neighborhood, Oakland 14,294
College Avenue Neighborhood, Berkeley 14,125
Eastmont Neighborhood, Oakland 14,002
Upper Peralta Creek Neighborhood, Oakland 13,959
East Peralta Neighborhood, Oakland 13,948
Highland Park Neighborhood, Oakland 13,705
Gourmet Ghetto Neighborhood, Berkeley 13,494
Castlemont Neighborhood, Oakland 13,414
Arroyo Viejo Neighborhood, Oakland 13,404
Cleveland Heights Neighborhood, Oakland 13,354
Fairfax Neighborhood, Oakland 12,993
Civic Center Neighborhood, Oakland, 12,856
North Neighborhood, Berkeley 12,815
Old Oakland Neighborhood, Oakland 12,280
Gaskill Neighborhood, Oakland 12,276
Iveywood Neighborhood, Oakland 12,136
Paradise Park neighborhood, Oakland 11,886
Piedmont Avenue Neighborhood, Oakland 11,798
South Berkeley neighborhood, Berkeley 11,749
Havenscourt Neighborhood, Oakland 11,639
North Stonehurst Neighborhood, Oakland 11,625
Farelly Pond Neighborhood, San Leandro 11,315
Central Berkeley Neighborhood, Berkeley 11,280
Fairview Park Neighborhood, Oakland 11,213
San Pablo Gateway Neighborhood, Oakland 11,151
Santa Fe Neighborhood, Oakland 11,132
Upper Laurel Neighborhood, Oakland 11,117
Laurel Neighborhood, Oakland 10,973
Longfellow Neighborhood, Oakland 10,896
Downtown Neighborhood, Albany 10,888
Las Palmas Neighborhood, Oakland 10,838
Bushrod Neighborhood, Oakland 10,810
Eastshore Neighborhood, San Leandro 10,738
Lakeshore Neighborhood, Oakland 10,736
Upper Dimond Neighborhood, Oakland 10,626
Creekside Neighborhood, San Leandro 10,393

Also, there is another large cluster a few miles North of the Oakland-Berkeley cluster of 10,000+ppsm in Richmond-San Pablo which includes the entire city of San Pablo and the entire Unincorporated town of Rollingwood

Richmond & San Pablo connected neighborhoods
Rollingwood CDP, 14,879 persons per square mile
Forest Park Neighborhood, Richmond 14,475 persons per square mile
City Center Neighborhood, Richmond 13,706 persons per square mile
Belding Woods Neighborhood, Richmond 13,273 persons per square mile
Eastshore Neighborhood, Richmond 11,710 persons per square mile
San Pablo City, 12,057 persons per square mile
Iron Triangle Neighborhood, Richmond 10,389 persons per square mile
Panhandle Annex Neighborhood, Richmond 10,299 persons per square mile

There are also other areas in San Leandro near the Hayward border which tells me that Hayward probably has 10,000ppsm neighborhoods too.

[jman650]

I'm really starting to become convinced that people from Philly and people from the Bay do not speak the same form of English. The words are the same but the meanings are different. Its really tough to keep us all on the same page it seems, unfortunately.

[slo1318]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

well in the core 47, 135, 200 miles Philly is more dense than SF, but I agree with you desnsity is not the only factor on urbanity

You keep saying this, but we know its false. San Francisco has the denser core, and the denser urban area. So does San Jose btw......

[btownboss4]

Originally Posted by slo1318

You keep saying this, but we know its false. San Francisco has the denser core, and the denser urban area. So does San Jose btw......

once again density=/= urban
Reading, Mass is more urban than most LA. Suburbs but is less dense
some LA suburbs have 4000 ppsm however need to drive 10 miles to the supermarket, but Reading Mass has a density of 2,500 yet has a vibrant urban Downtown, and loads of pedistrains