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Old 08-14-2011, 01:44 AM
 
Location: NY-NJ-Philly looks down at SF and laughs at the hippies
1,144 posts, read 1,288,022 times
Reputation: 432

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
Because...?


So far, none of the Philadelphia posters for why Philly offers a more compelling urban experience than San Francisco. The arguments have revolved around urban footprints, which while somewhat interesting as factoids do not make for interesting city comparisons. Using the logic that KidPhilly uses (SF's urban footprint is interspaced by the Bay so it doesn't really count), you could literally use the exact same argument against Manhattan as you cannot go to Brooklyn, NJ or Queens without crossing water. On the same token, however, nobody is going to be stupid enough to make any sort of post that elevates Philly's urban experience over Manhattan or NYC because of this.

I ask you: What about the urban experience in Philly elevates it over SF other than that it's bigger?
I have answered this not once tonight, but TWICE. I will repeat myself again from my previous posts.

1. Philadelphia has roughly 200,000 MORE people than SF within the same amount of space.

2. Philadelphia has a far superior transit system. PATCO is 24 hours while BART closes. Also, Philadelphia transit has better coverage, more stations and more lines.

 
Old 08-14-2011, 01:45 AM
 
Location: In the heights
36,917 posts, read 38,864,790 times
Reputation: 20949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
You're asking how so? Look at the actual total density of Philly. Something is dragging that number down... you tell me what it is if not the rest of Philly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
If your only view of urbanity is density then he makes a reasonable argument, but density is obviously not the only part of urbanity - far from it - so it's not a particularly reasonable argument.
Tell me you see the logical disconnect, too.

I quoted the first post above, and then you reply to me with the second post.

Doesn't that rub you as sort of ridiculous.

And no, I haven't heard kidphilly or myself say anything about density being the only rubric for urbanity, so I don't know why you're mentioning that. In fact, it's been mostly the people from Philly citing things aside from density which make Philly "more urban"--some of which I agree with, some of which I don't.
 
Old 08-14-2011, 01:46 AM
 
Location: The City
22,379 posts, read 38,702,913 times
Reputation: 7975
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
If your only view of urbanity is density then he makes a reasonable argument, but density is obviously not the only part of urbanity - far from it - so it's not a particularly reasonable argument.

Seriously???? I agree that density is not everything, there is developed footprint, cohesion, connectivity, vibrancy, transit etc.

Honestly you have stated you have ZERO experience with Philly, just stop you have ZERO basis to even make a comparison. Or is it you just refuse to somehow accept that Philly could actually be more urban than SF, it sure seems that way but again you have never actually experieced Philly so any comparsion is purely a guess I am assuming for you.
 
Old 08-14-2011, 01:48 AM
 
Location: In the heights
36,917 posts, read 38,864,790 times
Reputation: 20949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gateway Region View Post
2. Philadelphia has a far superior transit system. PATCO is 24 hours while BART closes. Also, PATCO has better coverage, more stations and more lines.
Why are you talking about PATCO? That thing has only a SINGLE very limited line with four stations in Philly proper and it's not very well-integrated with the rest (i.e. the vast majority) of the mass transit in Philly. I guess it's a boon of some kind, but it doesn't really make all that big of a difference.

Have you ever used mass transit in Philly at all?
 
Old 08-14-2011, 01:50 AM
 
Location: The Bay
6,914 posts, read 14,680,131 times
Reputation: 3119
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
Again visit both and check back. they are both equally as vibrant, dense (though Philly has more cohesive and continuous density) as to better urbanity, dunno, not sure there is a better (vibrancy is more important to your point where they are likely equal just Philly has more of it).

And warehouse districts, umm are you suggesting they dont exist in Philly (actually do with much more etc.)

Spend time in both and you may understand

Actually no I didn't, I suggested that SF is 1/3 the land size of Philly which means that it takes 1/3 less undeveloped land to directly impact San Francisco's O/A density to the same tune that Philly is impacted. And no, it does not offer more "cohesive and continuous density" if you are ONLY comparing it to San Francisco which is exactly what we're doing in this thread... if it did, it would be denser.


That neighborhood you used to make the point about "continuous density" sure didn't look vibrant. It looked more like urban sprawl, which is a lot of what you've said is so great about Philly's footprint.
 
Old 08-14-2011, 01:56 AM
 
Location: The Bay
6,914 posts, read 14,680,131 times
Reputation: 3119
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Tell me you see the logical disconnect, too.

I quoted the first post above, and then you reply to me with the second post.

Doesn't that rub you as sort of ridiculous.

And no, I haven't heard kidphilly or myself say anything about density being the only rubric for urbanity, so I don't know why you're mentioning that. In fact, it's been mostly the people from Philly citing things aside from density which make Philly "more urban"--some of which I agree with, some of which I don't.

I don't see the disconnect... I said that the only way you can make Philly more dense than San Francisco is when you ignore the rest of the city (i.e. the actual density of Philadelphia). No such thing is being done for San Francisco... otherwise, the core 10 miles of San Francisco are more than likely far denser than the core 10 miles of Philly. WTF does that actually prove?

I then said that his main argument thus far has been saying that the core 47 miles of Philly is denser than San Francisco, when the question of this thread is whether Philly is more urban as a whole than San Francisco as a whole. Urbanity is more than density...
 
Old 08-14-2011, 01:57 AM
 
Location: The City
22,379 posts, read 38,702,913 times
Reputation: 7975
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Why are you talking about PATCO? That thing has only a SINGLE very limited line with four stations in Philly proper and it's not very well-integrated with the rest (i.e. the vast majority) of the mass transit in Philly. I guess it's a boon of some kind, but it doesn't really make all that big of a difference.

Have you ever used mass transit in Philly at all?

Agree, overall both cities have decent PT, some aspects are better in one versus another. Patco is good for where it covers but does require and seperate pay to transfer to Septa subways at either 8th (MFL) or Walnut (BSL). Philly has better subway lines in the city but are still far too limited. BART is kind of hybrid and has aspects of a subway and regional rail service. Where BART serivices the city of SF it does a great job similar to Septa, but both could be better. There are parts of both that are as good as anywhere. I rode the BSL to the Phils last night and back to Rittenhouse, the ride was 6 minutes on an express from the ballpark which was great, but I rarely use Septa as many parts of the city are painful to get to. Patco for what it serves is great but again is one line with a limited coverage area.
 
Old 08-14-2011, 01:58 AM
 
Location: Los Altos Hills, CA
36,630 posts, read 67,185,104 times
Reputation: 21164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gateway Region View Post
However, how urban can a city truly be with a poor transit system?
How "urban" can a city be with far better shopping at a suburban mall than in its 'effing Downtown?

And the list below is not even complete...
Quote:
Geary & Stockton, San Francisco

Shopping in Downtown SF:

Department Stores: 11
Barneys New York
Bloomingdale's
Burlington Coat Factory
Macy's & Macy's Men's Store
Marshall's
Neiman Marcus
Nordstrom
Ross
Saks Fifth Avenue & Saks Fifth Avenue Men's Store
Wilkes Bashford
Coming Soon: Target

Partial List of Stores: 477
7 For All Mankind
AAA Automobile Club Store
A Pea in Pod
A. Shine & Co.(2)
AB Fits
Abercrombie
Abercrombie & Fitch(2)
Ace Hardware(Cole Fox)
Abigail's Flowers
Adidas
Adriano Goldschmied
Aeropostale
Aerosoles
AG Ferrari
Agent Provocateur
Agnes B.
Alden Men's Fine Shoes
Aldo(2)
ALESSI
Allen-Edmonds
Amadeus Flowers
Ambassador Toys
Amber India
American Eagle Outfitters
Amir H. Mozzarffarian
Ann Taylor
Anne Fontaine
Anthropologie
Apple Store
AX Armani Exchange
Elizabeth Arden Red Door
Aricie Lingerie de Marque
Aritzia
The Art of Shaving
Arthur Beren
ArtPeople Gallery
Avant Card
Aveda
Axelle Fine Arts
Azul
B44
Babette
Baby Gap
Bacarrat
Bakers
Banana Republic(3)
Bang Olufsen
The Bar Method
Barcelino(2)
Barcelino Per Donna
Bare Escentuals
Bath & Body Works
BCBG Max Azria
Beautyland
Bebe
Bella Ceramica
Bella Pelle
Benetton
BEST Camera
Betsy Johnson
Black Scale
Bond Latin Galley
Border's Books and Music
Borrelli Menswear
Bottega Veneta
Bose
Bucheron Paris
Hugo Boss
Bossa
Break Point Massage
Brian Gross Fine Art
Bridal Galleria
Brighton Collectibles
Brite Smile
Britex Fabrics
Brooks Brothers
Brookstone
Brows Shaping Salon
Burberry
Burke Williams Day Spa
Bvlgari
Cache
Cafe Coton(Menswear)
Calbee Shop
Caldwell Snyder Gallery
Camper Shoes
Calvin Klein
Candelier
Cardiology
Carlton Hair
Cartier
Casserd Shoes
CB2
Cecile Jeanne
Celine
Champs
Chanel
Chico's
Christian Audigier
Christian Dior
Chronicle Books
Claire's Boutique
Clarks
Club Monaco
Club One
Coach
Cocoa Bella Chocolates
Cohen Reese Gallery
CompoClay
Cole Haan
Conway Jewelers
Couture
Cowboys and Angels
Crate & Barrel
Cresalia Jewelers
Crocs
Crumpler
DB Shoes
De Beers
de Vera
DeMasqe
Designer Consigner
Desigual
Diesel USA
Digital Powell
Dior Homme
Disney Store
Don Sherwood's Golf & Tennis
Downtown
DSW Shoe Warehouse
E&O Trading Co.
EB Games
Ed Hardy
Easy Spirit
Eastern Newsstand
Ecco
Eddie Bauer
Edward's Luggage & Gifts
Emporio Armani
Emporio Armani Express
Emporio Rulli on Union Square
Enchanted Garden
Eve Carumba
Express
Farinelli
Salvatore Ferragamo
Ferrari Store
French Connection UK
Fiona's Sweetshoppe
Fly Fishin Outfitters
Footlocker
For Eyes Optical
Forever 21
Fossil
Franco Sarto
Frederick's of Hollywood
Fresh
Furla
G-Star Raw
Galleria de Bellagio
Galleria Hair Design
Game Stop
Gap(3)
Gap Kids(2)
George Krevsky Gallery
Ghiradelli Chocolate
Giants Dugout
Gioia Fine Art
Giorgio Armani
Glitter Optics
Goyard
GNC(2)
Go! Toys & Games
Godiva Chocolatier
Golfsmith
Good Vibrations
Grace Jewelers
Grant's Pipe Shop
Gucci
Guess
Guess by Marciano
Gump's
Gymboree
H2 Cards(Happiness Happiness)
H20
Hang Art
HANNspree
Harper Greer
Harput's
Harry O Meanswear
Hats on Post
Henry Cotton's
Hermes Paris
Herve Leger
H&M(2 locations)
Hicky Freeman
Himmelberger Gallery
Hollister Co.
Hound
Icing
Ilori
International Wholesale Jewelers
J. Crew
Jacqueline Perfumery
James *****
Janie & Jack
Japanese Sweets
Japanese Weekend Maternity
Jeffrey's Toys & Comics
Jenkins Johnson
Jessica McClintock
Jil Sander
Jin Wang
Joanie Char
Joe's Jeans
John Fluevog
John Varvatos
John Walker & Co. Wine & Spirits
Johnston & Murphy
Jos. A. Bank(2)
Judith Ripka
Juicy Couture(2)
K & D Home Furnishings
Karen Miller
karikter
Kashmir Home Collection
Kate Spade
Katie Koos
Kay Jewelers
Kenneth Cole
Kest Jewels
Kiehl's
Klaus Murer Swiss Jeweler
Kvanum
Lacoste
Lady Foot Locker
Lang's Antiques & Estate Jewelry
Latin Bond
Le Colonial
Lenscrafters
Levi's Flagship Store
Lids
Light Opera
Lily Sami
L.L. Brown Jewelers
L'Occitane
L'Occitane en Provence
Locker Room Sports
Loehman's
London Sole
Longchamp
Loro Piana
Louis Vuitton(3)
Lucky Brand
Lucy
Lush
Lupicia
Lutece
Lydia's Flowers
Madewell
Mai Do
Mango
Manika Jewelry
Malm Luggage
Marc Jacobs
Marlowe
Marmot
Marquad's
Martin Lawrence Galleries
Mason Smoke Shop
Max & Co.
Maxmara
Maxferd Jewelry
MaxStudio.com
Medicine New-Shonjin
Memento Press
MemXpress
Melvita
Men's Wearhouse
Metier
Meyerovich
Michael
Michael Kors
Michael Toschi
Midtown Jewelry
A Miner Miracle Shop
MIX
MNG Mango
Montblanc
Morrow's Nut House
Murik Children's Store
Nara Camicie
Natalie's
NE Q&J Boutique
Needlepoint Inc.
New Asia
Nevska
Niketown
Nine West(2)
Nob Hil Cigar
Nobel Shoes
The North Face
Oakley
Old Navy
Office Depot
Onsen
On the Fly
Optica
Optical Underground
Original Discount Perfume
Origins
Orvis
Pacific Sunwear
Pagewhirl
Pandora
Papyrus(2)
Paris Affaire
Paris Jewelry
Patrick & Co.
Paul Frank Store
Paul Smith
Pavillion Christofle
Payless Shoe Source(2)
Pearl Jade Empire
Pesarisi Ceramics
Peter Panos
Thomas Pink
Polo Ralph Lauren
Ponzu
****'s Jewelry
Porsche Design Center
Prada
Premier Atelier
Premier Health & Beauty
Priscilla of Boston
Pro Style
PUMA
Pure Beauty
Quicksilver
Radio Shack(2)
Ralph Lauren Home Collection
Rasputin Music
Ravits Watches & Jewelry
Ria Shoes
Rims & Goggles
Rochester Big & Tall
Rolex
Rockport
Rosetta Stone
Sample Sale
San Francisco Dancewear
Sanrio
Safton Rare Threads
Scheuer Linens
See's Candies(2)
Selix
Sephora
Serge Sorrokko
Sereno
SF Jazz Store
SF Museum of Craft Store
SF Souveniers & Luggage
Shiekh
Shirtique
Shoe Wiz
Shreve & Co.
Shuz of San Francisco
Signature Perfume
Sikara Jewelry
Simayof Jewelers
Sisley
Sketchers
S+L Gem Company
So Good Collectibles
Solstice Sunglass Boutique(2)
Something Silver
Spa Nordstrom
Spargo, a place for men
Spectacle Shoppe
St Croix
St John Boutique
Staples
Sterling Works
Stuart Weitzman
Stylo Fine Pens
Sun Shade Optique
Sunglass Hut(2)
Sunglass Hut & Watch Station
Sunshine Health Foods
Superdry UK
Sur La Table(2)
Swarovski
Swatch
Talbot's
Ted Baker
Teknion
Teuscher Chocolates
The Archive
The Artists Alley
The Body Shop
The Children's Place
The Container Store
The Custom Shop Shirtmakers
The Mens Wearhouse(2)
The Rafael's
Theory
Three Bags Full
Tiffany & Co.
Timberland
Tommy Bahana
Torso Vintages
Tory Burch
Torneau
Tous
Travel+
Travelex
True Religion
TSE
TUMI
Ugg Australia
Union Square Gallery Market
UnkKum
Uomo European Meanswer
Urban Outfitters
Van Heusen Men & Women
Vanity Beauty Lounge
Vans
Vera Bradley
Vi Gallery
Victoria's Secret(2)
Vidal Sassoon
Villeroy & Boch
VIP Luggage & Leather
Vision First
Waterworks
Weinstein Gallery
West Cost Leather
Wet Seal
The Whiskey Shop
White House Black Market
White Science
Williams-Sonoma
Wolford
World of Charms
YAP
Xanadu Gallery
Yves Saint Laurent
Zara

Partial List of Grocery Stores:
Bristol Farms
*Not sure if I should include the Whole Foods and Safeway locations in SOMA.
*The Ferry Building merchants forthcoming.

Movie Theaters: 3(29 screens total)
AMC Loew's Metreon 16 Cinemas
Century 8 Cinemas at SF Center
Landmark's Embarcadero 5 Cinemas

Partial List of Miscellaneous:
Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf(2)
Jamba Juice(4)
McDonald's(4)
Peet's(17)
Starbuck's(32)
Walgreen's(8)
7-11(4)

Restaurants:
In my research, I've discovered that there are at least 1,000 eateries and restaurants in Downtown. Its too exhaustive to look them all up and go through Google Maps street view. LOL.
Downtown SF has more stores than King of Prussia Mall as well. btw.
 
Old 08-14-2011, 01:59 AM
 
Location: The City
22,379 posts, read 38,702,913 times
Reputation: 7975
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
Actually no I didn't, I suggested that SF is 1/3 the land size of Philly which means that it takes 1/3 less undeveloped land to directly impact San Francisco's O/A density to the same tune that Philly is impacted. And no, it does not offer more "cohesive and continuous density" if you are ONLY comparing it to San Francisco which is exactly what we're doing in this thread... if it did, it would be denser.


That neighborhood you used to make the point about "continuous density" sure didn't look vibrant. It looked more like urban sprawl, which is a lot of what you've said is so great about Philly's footprint.

Again come and ACTUALLY experience the city, at this point your points have little relevance as they are based on speculation and not experience.
 
Old 08-14-2011, 01:59 AM
 
Location: NY-NJ-Philly looks down at SF and laughs at the hippies
1,144 posts, read 1,288,022 times
Reputation: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Why are you talking about PATCO?
I am making a comparison between PATCO being a 24 hour system and BART closing around midnight. Transit makes a difference in terms of urbanity.

Quote:
That thing has only a SINGLE very limited line with four stations in Philly proper and it's not very well-integrated with the rest (i.e. the vast majority) of the mass transit in Philly. I guess it's a boon of some kind, but it doesn't really make all that big of a difference.
I was not done editing my post. I sent my post at 2:44 and you sent your response to me at 2:48. Look at the bottom left of my post and you can see there is not an edit time, which means I edited my post quickly after it being sent. I was probably editing my post as you were typing up your response to me.

Quote:
Have you ever used mass transit in Philly at all?
I am from Philadelphia metro and don't care for the condescending tone.
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