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Old 08-05-2011, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,516 posts, read 15,765,525 times
Reputation: 7257
Quote:
Originally Posted by nashvols View Post
Principle city (or cities)
Principle city with highest density
burb that exceeds core city's density
burb that exceeds at least one core city's density
burb that does not exceed any core city's density


Los Angeles - 3,792,621 - 8,091.8
Inglewood - 109,673 (Los Angeles) - 12,052.0
Santa Ana - 324,528 (Los Angeles) - 11,887.5
El Monte - 113,475 (Los Angeles) - 11,820.3
Norwalk - 105,549 (Los Angeles) - 10,881.3
Garden Grove - 170,883 (Los Angeles) - 9,546.5
Long Beach - 462,257 (Los Angeles) - 9,190.0
Downey - 111,772 (Los Angeles) - 9,013.9

Huntington Beach - 189,992 (Los Angeles) - 7,115.8
Torrance - 145,438 (Los Angeles) - 7,094.5
Costa Mesa - 109,960 (Los Angeles) - 7,003.8
Anaheim - 336,265 (Los Angeles) - 6,752.3
Pomona - 149,058 (Los Angeles) - 6,480.8
West Corvina - 106,098 (Los Angeles) - 6,631.1
Glendale - 191,719 (Los Angeles) - 6,285.9
Fullerton - 135,161 (Los Angeles) - 6,034.0
Burbank - 103,340 (Los Angeles) - 5,973.4
Pasadena - 137,122 (Los Angeles) - 5,961.8
Orange - 136,416 (Los Angeles) - 5,500.6
Santa Clarita - 176,320 (Los Angeles) - 3,345.7
Irvine - 212,375 (Los Angeles) - 3,212.9
Lancaster - 156,633 (Los Angeles) - 1,661.0
Palmdale - 152,750 (Los Angeles) - 1,441.0


San Jose - 945,942 - 5,359.4
San Francisco - 805,235 - 17,169.2
Oakland - 390,724 - 7,002.2
Daly City - 101,123 (Bay Area) - 13,122.9
Berkeley - 112,580 (Bay Area) - 10,721.9
Santa Clara - 116,468 (Bay Area) - 6,329.8
Sunnyvale - 140,081 (Bay Area) - 6,367.3

Santa Rosa - 167,815 (Bay Area) - 4,063.3
Concord - 122,067 (Bay Area) - 4,002.2
Vallejo - 115,942 (Bay Area) - 3,776.6
Antioch - 102,372 (Bay Area) - 3,617.4
Richmond - 103,701 (Bay Area) - 3,445.2
Hayward - 144,186 (Bay Area) - 3,182.9
Fairfield - 105,321 (Bay Area) - 2,816.1
Fremont - 214,089 (Bay Area) - 2,762.4


Dallas - 1,197,816 - 3,517.8
Fort Worth - 741,206 - 2,181.3
Garland - 226,876 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 3,973.6
Arlington - 365,438 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 3,810.6
Plano - 259,841 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 3,629.1

Carrollton - 119,097 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 3,280.9
Irving - 216,290 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 3,228.2
Mesquite - 139,824 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 3,039.7
Grand Prairie - 175,396 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 2,432.7

McKinney - 131,117 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 2,108.0
Frisco - 116,989 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 1,893.0
Denton - 113,383 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 1,288.4


Phoenix - 1,445,632 - 2,797.8
Tempe - 161,719 (Phoenix) - 4,053.1
Glendale - 226,721 (Phoenix) - 3,778.7
Chandler - 236,123 (Phoenix) - 3,666.5
Mesa - 439,041 (Phoenix) - 3,216.4
Gilbert - 208,453 (Phoenix) - 3,065.5

Scottsdale - 217,385 (Phoenix) - 1,182.1
Surprise - 117,517 (Phoenix) - 1,111.8
Peoria - 154,065 (Phoenix) - 883.4


Riverside - 303,871 - 3,746.9
San Bernardino - 209,924 - 3,546.0
Fontana - 196,069 (San Bernardino-Riverside) - 4,624.3
Rancho Cucamonga - 165,269 (San Bernardino-Riverside) - 4,142.1
Corona - 152,374 (San Bernardino-Riverside) - 3,927.2
Moreno Valley - 193,365 (San Bernardino-Riverside) - 3,769.3

Temecula - 100,097 (San Bernardino-Riverside) - 3,314.5
Ontario - 163,924 (San Bernardino-Riverside) - 3,285.1
Murrieta - 103,466 (San Bernardino-Riverside) - 3,079.3
Victorville - 115,903 (San Bernardino-Riverside) - 1,583.4


Denver - 600,158 - 3,922.6

Centennial - 100,377 (Denver) - 3,497.5
Thornton - 118,772 (Denver) - 3,413.0
Westminster - 106,114 (Denver) - 3,358.0
Lakewood - 142,980 (Denver) - 3,332.9
Arvada - 106,433 (Denver) - 3,032.3
Aurora - 325,078 (Denver) - 2,101.3


Miami - 399,457 - 11,126.9

Fort Lauderdale
- 165,521 - 4,756.4
Hialeah - 224,669 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale) - 10,449.7
Miami Gardens - 107,167 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale) - 5,888.3
Hollywood - 140,768 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale) - 5,137.5
Coral Springs - 121,096 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale) - 5,088.1

Pembroke Pines - 154,750 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale) - 4,675.2
Miramar - 122,041 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale) - 4,137.0


New York - 8,175,133 - 27,016.3
Paterson - 146,199 (New York) - 17,404.6
Jersey City - 247,597 (New York) - 16,729.5
Newark - 277,140 (New York) - 11,452.1
Yonkers - 195,976 (New York) - 10,887.6
Elizabeth - 124,969 (New York) - 10,160.1


San Diego - 1,307,402 - 4,020.2

Chula Vista - 243,916 (San Diego) - 4,917.7
Oceanside - 167,086 (San Diego) - 4,055.5

Escondido - 143,911 (San Diego) - 3,910.6
Carlsbad - 105,328 (San Diego) - 2,793.8


Chicago - 2,695,598 - 11,843.6

Aurora - 197,889 (Chicago) - 4,407.6
Joliet - 147,433 (Chicago) - 2,374.1
Naperville - 141,853 (Chicago) - 3,656.0
Elgin - 108,188 (Chicago) - 2,908.3


Kansas City (MO) - 459,787 - 1,459.6

Overland Park - 173,372 (Kansas City) - 2,317.8
Olathe - 125,872 (Kansas City) - 2,108.4
Independence - 116,830 (Kansas City) - 1,505.5


Las Vegas - 583,756 - 4,298.6
Henderson - 257,729 (Las Vegas) - 2,393.0
North Las Vegas - 216,961 (Las Vegas) - 2,141.8


Washington - 601,723 - 9,864.3

Alexandria - 139,966 (Washington) - 9,331.1
Arlington - 207,627 (Washington) - 7,985.7

Portland - 583,776 - 4,376.1
Gresham - 105,594 (Portland) - 4,551.5
Vancouver - 161,791 (Portland) - 3,479.4

Sacramento - 466,488 - 4,764.9
Elk Grove - 153,015 (Sacramento) - 3,625.9
Roseville - 118,788 (Sacramento) - 3,281.4


Detroit - 713,777 - 5,142.5
Warren - 134,056 (Detroit) - 3,897.0
Sterling Heights - 129,699 (Detroit) - 3,553.4


Salt Lake City - 186,440 - 1,678.1
West Valley City - 129,480 (Salt Lake City) - 3,637.1
West Jordan - 103,712 (Salt Lake City) - 3,191.1


Oxnard - 197,899 - 7,356.8
Thousand Oaks - 126,683 - 2,303.3
Ventura - 106,433 (Oxnard-Thousand Oaks) - 4,904.7
Simi Valley - 124,237 (Oxnard-Thousand Oaks) - 2,993.7


Boston - 617,594 - 12,786.6
Cambridge - 105,162 (Boston) - 16,431.6
Lowell - 106,519 (Boston) - 7,832.3

Seattle - 608,660 - 7,254.6
Bellevue - 122,363 (Seattle) - 3,823.8
Everett - 103,019 (Seattle) - 3,084.4


Virginia Beach - 437,994 - 1,759.0
Norfolk - 242,803 - 4,488.0
Chesapeake - 222,209 (Norfolk-Virginia Beach) - 652.0

Houston - 2,099,451 - 3,501.4
Pasadena - 149,043 (Houston) - 3,482.3

Raleigh - 403,892 - 2,826.4

Cary - 135,234 (Raleigh) - 2,490.5

Oklahoma City - 579,999 - 956.5
Norman - 110,925 (Oklahoma City) - 620.4

Nashville - 601,222 - 1,265.5

Murfreesboro - 108,755 (Nashville) - 1,966.6

Tampa - 335,709 - 2,960.4
St. Petersburg - 244,769 - 3,967.1
Clearwater - 107,685 (Tampa Bay) - 4,206.4




So....the answer to the question is:
Los Angeles
Dallas-Fort Worth
Phoenix
San Diego
Kansas City
Portland
Salt Lake City
Boston
Nashville
Tampa-St. Pete
San Bernardino-Riverside (if you consider that a qualifying city/metro)



Oh, and the densest suburbs of 100k:

1) Paterson - 146,199 (New York) - 17,404.6
2) Jersey City - 247,597 (New York) - 16,729.5

3) Cambridge - 105,162 (Boston) - 16,431.6
4) Daly City - 101,123 (Bay Area) - 13,122.9
5) Inglewood - 109,673 (Los Angeles) - 12,052.0
6) Santa Ana - 324,528 (Los Angeles) - 11,887.5
7) El Monte - 113,475 (Los Angeles) - 11,820.3
8) Newark - 277,140 (New York) - 11,452.1
9) Yonkers - 195,976 (New York) - 10,887.6
10) Norwalk - 105,549 (Los Angeles) - 10,881.3
11) Berkeley - 112,580 (Bay Area) - 10,721.9
12) Hialeah - 224,669 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale) - 10,449.7
13) Elizabeth - 124,969 (New York) - 10,160.1
14) Garden Grove - 170,883 (Los Angeles) - 9,546.5
15) Alexandria - 139,966 (Washington) - 9,331.1
16) Long Beach - 462,257 (Los Angeles) - 9,190.0
17) Downey - 111,772 (Los Angeles) - 9,013.9

18) Arlington - 207,627 (Washington) - 7,985.7
19) Lowell - 106,519 (Boston) - 7,832.3
20) Huntington Beach - 189,992 (Los Angeles) - 7,115.8
awesome awesome awesome job.

This one deserves some reps.
It seems this occurs in all areas of the country.

Thanks
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
7,554 posts, read 9,149,184 times
Reputation: 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by nashvols View Post
Here's a list of all suburbs over 100k:

Long Beach - 462,257 (Los Angeles)
Mesa - 439,041 (Phoenix)
Arlington - 365,438 (Dallas-Fort Worth)
Anaheim - 336,265 (Los Angeles)
Aurora - 325,078 (Denver)
Santa Ana - 324,528 (Los Angeles)
Newark - 277,140 (New York)
Plano - 259,841 (Dallas-Fort Worth)
Henderson - 257,729 (Las Vegas)
Jersey City - 247,597 (New York)
Chula Vista - 243,916 (San Diego)
Chandler - 236,123 (Phoenix)
Garland - 226,876 (Dallas-Fort Worth)
Glendale - 226,721 (Phoenix)
Hialeah - 224,669 (Miami)
Chesapeake* - 222,209 (Norfolk-Virginia Beach)
Scottsdale - 217,385 (Phoenix)
North Las Vegas - 216,961 (Las Vegas)
Irving - 216,290 (Dallas-Fort Worth)
Fremont - 214,089 (Bay Area)
Irvine - 212,375 (Los Angeles)
Gilbert - 208,453 (Phoenix)
Arlington - 207,627 (Washington)
Aurora - 197,889 (Chicago)
Fontana - 196,069 (San Bernardino-Riverside)
Yonkers - 195,976 (New York)
Moreno Valley - 193,365 (San Bernardino-Riverside)
Glendale - 191,719 (Los Angeles)
Huntington Beach - 189,992 (Los Angeles)
Santa Clarita - 176,320 (Los Angeles)
Grand Prairie - 175,396 (Dallas-Fort Worth)
Overland Park - 173,372 (Kansas City)
Garden Grove - 170,883 (Los Angeles)
Santa Rosa - 167,815 (Bay Area)
Oceanside - 167,086 (San Diego)
Rancho Cucamonga - 165,269 (San Bernardino-Riverside)
Ontario - 163,924 (San Bernardino-Riverside)
Vancouver* - 161,791 (Portland)
Tempe - 161,719 (Phoenix)
Lancaster - 156,633 (Los Angeles)
Pembroke Pines - 154,750 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale)
Peoria - 154,065 (Phoenix)
Elk Grove - 153,015 (Sacramento)
Palmdale - 152,750 (Los Angeles)
Corona - 152,374 (San Bernardino-Riverside)
Pomona - 149,058 (Los Angeles)
Pasadena - 149,043 (Houston)
Joliet - 147,433 (Chicago)
Paterson - 146,199 (New York)
Torrance - 145,438 (Los Angeles)
Hayward - 144,186 (Bay Area)
Escondido - 143,911 (San Diego)
Lakewood - 142,980 (Denver)
Naperville - 141,853 (Chicago)
Hollywood - 140,768 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale)
Sunnyvale - 140,081 (Bay Area)
Alexandria - 139,966 (Washington)
Mesquite - 139,824 (Dallas-Fort Worth)
Pasadena - 137,122 (Los Angeles)
Orange - 136,416 (Los Angeles)
Cary - 135,234 (Raleigh)
Fullerton - 135,161 (Los Angeles)
Warren - 134,056 (Detroit)
McKinney - 131,117 (Dallas-Fort Worth)
Sterling Heights - 129,699 (Detroit)
West Valley City - 129,480 (Salt Lake City)
Olathe - 125,872 (Kansas City)
Elizabeth - 124,969 (New York)
Simi Valley - 124,237 (Oxnard-Thousand Oaks)
Bellevue - 122,363 (Seattle)
Concord - 122,067 (Bay Area)
Miramar - 122,041 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale)
Coral Springs - 121,096 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale)
Carrollton - 119,097 (Dallas-Fort Worth)
Roseville - 118,788 (Sacramento)
Thornton - 118,772 (Denver)
Surprise - 117,517 (Phoenix)
Frisco - 116,989 (Dallas-Fort Worth)
Independence* - 116,830 (Kansas City)
Santa Clara - 116,468 (Bay Area)
Vallejo - 115,942 (Bay Area)
Victorville - 115,903 (San Bernardino-Riverside)
El Monte - 113,475 (Los Angeles)
Denton - 113,383 (Dallas-Fort Worth)
Berkeley - 112,580 (Bay Area)
Downey - 111,772 (Los Angeles)
Norman - 110,925 (Oklahoma City)
Costa Mesa - 109,960 (Los Angeles)
Inglewood - 109,673 (Los Angeles)
Murfreesboro - 108,755 (Nashville)
Elgin - 108,188 (Chicago)
Clearwater* - 107,685 (Tampa Bay)
Miami Gardens - 107,167 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale)
Lowell - 106,519 (Boston)
Arvada - 106,433 (Denver)
Ventura* - 106,433 (Oxnard-Thousand Oaks)
Westminster - 106,114 (Denver)
West Corvina - 106,098 (Los Angeles)
Gresham - 105,594 (Portland)
Norwalk - 105,549 (Los Angeles)
Carlsbad - 105,328 (San Diego)
Fairfield - 105,321 (Bay Area)
Cambridge - 105,162 (Boston)
West Jordan - 103,712 (Salt Lake City)
Richmond - 103,701 (Bay Area)
Murrieta - 103,466 (San Bernardino-Riverside)
Burbank - 103,340 (Los Angeles)
Everett* - 103,019 (Seattle)
Antioch - 102,372 (Bay Area)
Daly City - 101,123 (Bay Area)
Centennial - 100,377 (Denver)
Temecula - 100,097 (San Bernardino-Riverside)

*-unsure if city could really be considered a "suburb" or even exburb. Could be a principle city in its own right.


I did not include a number of cities within metropolitan areas that could be considered principle population centers (i.e. Hampton and Newport News in the Norfolk area -- even though they are technically smaller than, say Chesapeake). I will leave that up to individuals that know the areas better to consider whether or not those places are suburbs of a main city, or a distinct part of it. Other examples would include Fort Lauderdale and Tacoma, because although they are much smaller than the principle city, they are almost often noted as a distinct part or district.

I also had a little bit of a dilemma with the California metros/combined metros. I chose to lump all of the Bay area suburbs together, rather than try to split them between San Fran/Oakland and San Jose...and I decided to list the Inland Empire separately from Los Angeles, even though Los Angeles remains the dominant city in the region (can you really define San Bernardino and Riverside as suburbs?). Still, other cities that are in the CSA might be considered suburbs of LA rather than whatever their own MSA suggests. I'm not familiar enough to make that call.

Anyhow, I came across a few possibilities as far as suburbs that might qualify as more dense than the core city. I'll look through the density numbers and revisit that later (or, if someone wants to review the list and do it for me, that would be fine, too ).
You didn't list Kansas City, KS (pop 145,000), suburb of Kansas City, MO
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
214 posts, read 189,132 times
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Yeah, Buffalo NY has one. The village of Kenmore has a density of 11,000 per square mile, almost twice of Buffalo!
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:14 PM
 
7,559 posts, read 4,837,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
DC is 9300 PSM. Arlington COUNTY VA, is 7300 PSM. Both are growing, I suspect Arlington rather faster (DC still has declining areas as well as booming areas) Not sure if or when Arlington will pass. Anyway that has to be pretty exceptional in terms of a 'suburban' COUNTY that close to the density of the central city. Most the dense towns in PG county MD are quite small.
DC had a density of 9,800 people per square mile as of the 2010 census and now currently in 2011 has a density even higher. I don't know where you were getting your numbers from but DC had 601,723 residents back in 2009 when they were collecting the 2010 census numbers. That number has skyrocketed since and DC is projected to be near 650,000 by 2015 which would put DC's density at 10,586 people per sq. mile in 4 years. Arlington is not expected to see anywhere near that type of growth so DC will be widening the gap actually.
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Music City, USA
5,029 posts, read 4,693,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
You didn't list Kansas City, KS (pop 145,000), suburb of Kansas City, MO
I was hesitant to list KC, KS because of its history with its larger neighbor. It was a city in its own right well before the suburban age. It's the same reason I didn't include places like Hampton and Newport News in VA. Not sure if we can truly call KC, KS a burb. Same goes for places like Tacoma, WA.


The list isn't perfect (and certainly open to debate)...but I think most of the original question was answered.
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
7,554 posts, read 9,149,184 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashvols View Post
I was hesitant to list KC, KS because of its history with its larger neighbor. It was a city in its own right well before the suburban age. It's the same reason I didn't include places like Hampton and Newport News in VA. Not sure if we can truly call KC, KS a burb. Same goes for places like Tacoma, WA.


The list isn't perfect (and certainly open to debate)...but I think most of the original question was answered.
I know it's a grey area. I was just messing with you. Indepedence, MO is similar to KCK and you listed it. It was once a larger city than KCMO and now it's a suburb of KCMO.

You mention Newport News and Hampton. That's a confusing place. Several small cities that just grew together.
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Music City, USA
5,029 posts, read 4,693,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
I know it's a grey area. I was just messing with you. Indepedence, MO is similar to KCK and you listed it. It was once a larger city than KCMO and now it's a suburb of KCMO.

You mention Newport News and Hampton. That's a confusing place. Several small cities that just grew together.
Yeah...on the original list I have a * by Independence. I had to think about it for a while. I actually looked up the population history before I listed it. It was a game-time decision.

Kansas City, MO:
1900 - 163,752
1950 - 456,622
2010 - 459,787
*peaked at 507,087 in 1970

Kansas City, KS
1900 - 51,418
1950 - 129,553
2010 - 145,786
*peaked at 168,213 in 1970

Independence, MO
1900 - 6,974
1950 - 36,963
2010 - 116,830
*currently at peak population

I consider the huge population growth since the "suburban age" from 1950 on as a reason to list Independence as a suburb, but not KC, KS.

Obviously this method doesn't work as well with the newer boom cities.



And yes, the Tidewater area is pretty confusing...it's essentially one big, fragmented city.
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Old 08-06-2011, 06:01 AM
 
2,250 posts, read 1,847,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashvols View Post
Dallas - 1,197,816 - 3,517.8
Fort Worth - 741,206 - 2,181.3
Garland - 226,876 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 3,973.6
Arlington - 365,438 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 3,810.6
Plano - 259,841 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 3,629.1
Carrollton - 119,097 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 3,280.9
Irving - 216,290 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 3,228.2
Mesquite - 139,824 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 3,039.7
Grand Prairie - 175,396 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 2,432.7
McKinney - 131,117 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 2,108.0
Frisco - 116,989 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 1,893.0
Denton - 113,383 (Dallas-Fort Worth) - 1,288.4
Actually Garland is 3,778/sq mi, Arlington is the dense city in DFW.
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Old 08-06-2011, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Music City, USA
5,029 posts, read 4,693,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
Actually Garland is 3,778/sq mi, Arlington is the dense city in DFW.
I just used the wikipedia numbers from the List of US cities by population. Not sure how accurate they are. It says 3,973.3 (I mistyped the decimal). Using the given land area figure and current population, that would appear to be correct.
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Old 08-06-2011, 08:36 PM
 
5,231 posts, read 9,340,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashvols View Post
[b]
Oh, and the densest suburbs of 100k:

1) Paterson - 146,199 (New York) - 17,404.6
2) Jersey City - 247,597 (New York) - 16,729.5

3) Cambridge - 105,162 (Boston) - 16,431.6
4) Daly City - 101,123 (Bay Area) - 13,122.9
5) Inglewood - 109,673 (Los Angeles) - 12,052.0
6) Santa Ana - 324,528 (Los Angeles) - 11,887.5
7) El Monte - 113,475 (Los Angeles) - 11,820.3
8) Newark - 277,140 (New York) - 11,452.1
9) Yonkers - 195,976 (New York) - 10,887.6
10) Norwalk - 105,549 (Los Angeles) - 10,881.3
11) Berkeley - 112,580 (Bay Area) - 10,721.9
12) Hialeah - 224,669 (Miami-Fort Lauderdale) - 10,449.7
13) Elizabeth - 124,969 (New York) - 10,160.1
14) Garden Grove - 170,883 (Los Angeles) - 9,546.5
15) Alexandria - 139,966 (Washington) - 9,331.1
16) Long Beach - 462,257 (Los Angeles) - 9,190.0
17) Downey - 111,772 (Los Angeles) - 9,013.9

18) Arlington - 207,627 (Washington) - 7,985.7
19) Lowell - 106,519 (Boston) - 7,832.3
20) Huntington Beach - 189,992 (Los Angeles) - 7,115.8
I would not consider these cities on your list as suburbs:
Paterson
Jersey City
Cambridge
Newark
Yonkers
Berkeley
Elizabeth
Alexandria
Long Beach
Lowell
When each was developed it was independent of the city in whose metro area they are today. All had their own economy, and travel between tham and the metro city was less common. Only since the automobile age did they become suburb-like, as people chose to live in them but commute to the nearby larger city, while at the same time, many of their original industries withered away.
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