Cincinnati vs Raleigh (population, life, cons, downtown)
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As of 2010, Cincinnati's CSA was about 470,000 people larger. At recent growth rates (using 2000-2010), it will take Raleigh's CSA ten more years to reach a level of population parity with Cincinnati. In that time, it will matter how Raleigh grows because, in reality, Raleigh is a city that is defining itself now. It was a spit of a place when older cities in the US were already large. In 1950, Cincinnati was over 500,000 within its limits. It's less than 300,000 today (it's actually getting less dense while the metro is getting larger and more suburban like almost everywhere). Conversely, Raleigh proper was about 65,000 in 1950 and over 400,000 today. It too became more suburban in the 60's onward and, because it grew mainly in the suburban years, has a large suburban footprint inside the city limits. However, that's a trend that's actually reversing itself as of late. For the past 10 years, Raleigh has added people at a pace faster than it added land, thus ending the decade a bit more densely populated than at the beginning. Unlike some of these other enormous city limit cities (over 300 square miles), Raleigh is belted by other municipalities that force it to look at growth inward rather than outward. We have been seeing that seed germinate since the late 90's. Infill projects are popping up in older "suburban" parts of the city as well as urban infill projects downtown. When I first bought a warehouse conversion condo in DT Raleigh in the mid 90s, many thought I was crazy. Now the DT neighborhoods are exploding with new construction for housing and public infrastructure and conversion of 100 year old storefronts into restaurants, bars, etc. About a dozen urban housing projects have been built in the last ten years including those that top the city's tallest building. Today I can count no fewer than 5 large urban multifamily housing projects that are either being built or slated for construction soon within walking distance to my condo. This is a trend that I expect to continue for the next decade. I guess what I am trying to say is that Raleigh is a city that's defining itself NOW. It's a city that has seemingly come out of nowhere in the last few decades. It's a city that was the 4th largest in the state in the 70s to one that's the 2nd largest today and 43rd largest in the nation. It has all the things today that can build a successful future. It's highly educated (one of the most educated in the nation). It's rapidly growing (again, one of the fastest in the nation). It has some of the best job prospects for the future in leading industries. It's diverse in its population and growing more so year by year. Because it's the state capital, it is also the center of state infrastructure for museums and the arts. The entire metro has an enormous university presence that fuels research and leading edge technologies and its population is young.
Not to discredit Raleigh in any way, but just because a city is shrinking doesn't mean it is bad shape. Cincinnati has some of the largest/ biggest projects going on in the country right now. Seeing some of the biggest $$$ being spent on these projects as well. From The Banks on the central riverfront between the Bengals Stadium and Reds Ballpark, a billion dollar mixed use project. The downtown is flourishing, and home to several fortune 500 companies... Macy's, Kroger, and Procter and Gamble to name a few. Downtown is also home to some upscale retail as well, and you can't beat public spaces like Fountain Square. The restaurant scene in downtown Cincy is beyond good. They have a great mix of modern and classic in the skyline (just completing their tallest building this year). The topography is Cincinnati is probaly the best out of any major city in the Midwest, and the variety in neighborhoods can keep one busy all week exploring the city. The "city of seven hills" has an awesome collection of neighborhoods overlooking the city. Over-The-Rhine has the largest collection of Italinate architecture in the country. The vibe walking down Vine Street with all of these restored buildings with traffic and people walking by you on the sidewalks and looking down towards the CBD is quite a sight. Construction continues at a rapid pace with tenants almost signing up weekly at The Banks (the residential component in the first phase is already sold out). Washington Park, Western Southern Financial is planning a new highrise condo by the new Queen City Square tower. Home to some great cultural institutions, a park systems that blows most cities' out of the water, and one of the top 10 cities for fortune 500 based companies; Cincinnati is EXTREMELY underrated. Omnicare is Cincinnati's new fortune 500 company moving in from Covington, KY just last month. Cincinnati also has some very nice inner and urban suburbs.... Blue Ash, Montgomery, and Mariemont are my favorites.
I like Raleigh, but I guess I am saying because a city is declining doesn't mean it doesn't have a very powerful, diverse economy that has a lower than average unemployment rate, and construction going on in every corner of the city. And it isn't like the metro area is declining... I would rather take slow and steady growth over boom/bust growth.
Cincinnati's "new" skyline shot: (My new favorite view of Cincinnati, and the new tower adds quite a variety to an already great skyline)
Cincinnati's metro population is as big as it has ever been. Don't fall into the trap of assuming actual city limit population defines the size of a metro. Using that logic, Jacksonville, Indianapolis and Columbus are bigger than Boston, Detroit and Seattle - which is, of course, laughable.
What I meant by bigger was in relative terms. At its peak Cincinnati was 4th in the country after Brooklyn, that's what I meant.
Not to discredit Raleigh in any way, but just because a city is shrinking doesn't mean it is bad shape. Cincinnati has some of the largest/ biggest projects going on in the country right now. Seeing some of the biggest $$$ being spent on these projects as well. From The Banks on the central riverfront between the Bengals Stadium and Reds Ballpark, a billion dollar mixed use project. The downtown is flourishing, and home to several fortune 500 companies... Macy's, Kroger, and Procter and Gamble to name a few. Downtown is also home to some upscale retail as well, and you can't beat public spaces like Fountain Square. The restaurant scene in downtown Cincy is beyond good. They have a great mix of modern and classic in the skyline (just completing their tallest building this year). The topography is Cincinnati is probaly the best out of any major city in the Midwest, and the variety in neighborhoods can keep one busy all week exploring the city. The "city of seven hills" has an awesome collection of neighborhoods overlooking the city. Over-The-Rhine has the largest collection of Italinate architecture in the country. The vibe walking down Vine Street with all of these restored buildings with traffic and people walking by you on the sidewalks and looking down towards the CBD is quite a sight. Construction continues at a rapid pace with tenants almost signing up weekly at The Banks (the residential component in the first phase is already sold out). Washington Park, Western Southern Financial is planning a new highrise condo by the new Queen City Square tower. Home to some great cultural institutions, a park systems that blows most cities' out of the water, and one of the top 10 cities for fortune 500 based companies; Cincinnati is EXTREMELY underrated. Omnicare is Cincinnati's new fortune 500 company moving in from Covington, KY just last month. Cincinnati also has some very nice inner and urban suburbs.... Blue Ash, Montgomery, and Mariemont are my favorites.
I like Raleigh, but I guess I am saying because a city is declining doesn't mean it doesn't have a very powerful, diverse economy that has a lower than average unemployment rate, and construction going on in every corner of the city. And it isn't like the metro area is declining... I would rather take slow and steady growth over boom/bust growth.
Cincinnati's "new" skyline shot: (My new favorite view of Cincinnati, and the new tower adds quite a variety to an already great skyline)
Downtown Cincinnati, looking from the southeast | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/aarondavidson/5165732440/in/photostream/ - broken link)
I went back and re-read my post to which you replied. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't slamming Cincinnati. That wasn't my intention. That said, I did want to highlight the VERY different paths that the two cities have taken to get where they are today. Cincinnati, like any city that grew prior to the automobile culture post WWII benefits from the infrastructure that was put in place then. Raleigh has very little of that because (frankly) before WWII it was a tiny sleepy state capital.
However, I did want to point out that Cincinnati continues to lose municipal population as the metro grows. This suggests that the urban life of the city is incresingly becoming "imported" from outside the city to breathe life into the core. Frankly, it's not such a different model than Raleigh's. While DT housing continues to sprout in Raleigh, the majority of revelers are coming DT from elsewhere in the city or the suburbs. They come for the bars, the restaurants, the performing arts, the museums, etc.
What I meant to convey about Raleigh is that it's rapidly changing to accommodate the new residents and the higher expectations that come along with a city of its size. Raleigh's investment in its core is astounding as of late and it continues to happen. For those who were in Raleigh 5 years ago, a lot has changed. For those in Raleigh now, a lot more will change in the next 5 years, etc. That's what I meant by the fact that the city is defining itself now.
I think the key is to find a symbiotic balance of how city centers support both its residents and its visitors. My other "home town" (Miami Beach) does this really well. There are parallel cultures operating side by side. Those of us who live there have a very different experience than those who come over the bridges from Miami or than those who come over the sea by airplane.
So, no slam on Cincinnati at all. That's not intended.
As for the insinuation that Raleigh may be a boom and bust town, don't hold your breath for a bust. It's a city built on a VERY strong educational foundation, leading industries, government and research. It's projected to be the epicenter of the fastest growing metro in the nation through 2025. It quietly built its solid foundation over the last 3-4 decades and it's finally having its "coming out" nationally while firmly planted in NC Motto: To be, rather than to seem.
Cincinnati blows Charlotte and Raleigh (combined) out of the water when it comes to what a "real city" should look and feel like. Even I can admit that. cincinnati - Google Maps
The truth is that "Raleigh" (as in the central city itself) is NOT where Triangle area growth and progress takes place. Such growth has taken place in suburban areas such as North Hills and northern Raleigh near I-540. Add to that the western edge of the county towards Brier Creek and Cary, and there you have it. Central Raleigh has always struggled to attract business and industry. As it stands now, central Raleigh just gained about 500 employees from Red Hat while still bracing for the loss of as many as 1,300 employees (Progress and RBC combined job cuts).
No one doubts that Raleigh is growing. The issue many have with Raleigh is the fact that the growth is not in a traditional urban setting. Since the early 1990s, there has only been two 20 plus story buildings built in central Raleigh (and this is the fastest growing "city" in the nation). THAT is where the lack of respect comes from my friend. Few of us on the forums are ready to scream "YEAAAAAA RALEIGH" because central Raleigh has not given us much of a reason to do so. I expect more from America's fastest growing city.
As for Cincy, the skyline is looking GOOD with that new tower.
Cincinnati blows Charlotte and Raleigh (combined) out of the water when it comes to what a "real city" should look and feel like. Even I can admit that. cincinnati - Google Maps
The truth is that "Raleigh" (as in the central city itself) is NOT where Triangle area growth and progress takes place. Such growth has taken place in suburban areas such as North Hills and northern Raleigh near I-540. Add to that the western edge of the county towards Brier Creek and Cary, and there you have it. Central Raleigh has always struggled to attract business and industry. As it stands now, central Raleigh just gained about 500 employees from Red Hat while still bracing for the loss of as many as 1,300 employees (Progress and RBC combined job cuts).
No one doubts that Raleigh is growing. The issue many have with Raleigh is the fact that the growth is not in a traditional urban setting. Since the early 1990s, there has only been two 20 plus story buildings built in central Raleigh (and this is the fastest growing "city" in the nation). THAT is where the lack of respect comes from my friend. Few of us on the forums are ready to scream "YEAAAAAA RALEIGH" because central Raleigh has not given us much of a reason to do so. I expect more from America's fastest growing city.
As for Cincy, the skyline is looking GOOD with that new tower.
Is it possible for you to say something nice about Raleigh?
BTW, please get your facts straight before you claim to be the expert about a city where you don't live. 3 towers have been built over 20 floors since 1990 and one more at 19 floors. Plus several others have been built in in the high teens....not to mention the performing arts center, the convention center and the new city plaza. No it's not a towering skyline but Raleigh doesn't measure its worth by the size of its phallic symbols. Frankly, I'd toss out ALL future towers to continue the rapidly expanding street level experience that DT Raleigh is experiencing today. I'd rather see more blocks of turn of the century storefronts exposed and restored for restaurants and entertainment venues than I would care to see another glass tower. I'd rather see more residents DT in midrise multifamily buildings than high profile HQs that empty out at nights and weekends.
If respect is garnered by the size of a skyline alone, then no thank you. I am not saying that skyline is inherently bad, I am just saying that it's not the be all and end all of what makes a city viable.
No one doubts that Raleigh is growing. The issue many have with Raleigh is the fact that the growth is not in a traditional urban setting. Since the early 1990s, there has only been two 20 plus story buildings built in central Raleigh (and this is the fastest growing "city" in the nation). THAT is where the lack of respect comes from my friend.
Highrises and traditional urban settings are not the same thing. As a matter of fact, sometimes they mean the complete opposite.
Is it possible for you to say something nice about Raleigh?
BTW, please get your facts straight before you claim to be the expert about a city where you don't live. 3 towers have been built over 20 floors since 1990 and one more at 19 floors.
I said early 1990s, not 1990. I am aware of the Wachovia and BB&T towers. Since those two, there's been very little.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnc2mbfl
I'd rather see more blocks of turn of the century storefronts exposed and restored for restaurants and entertainment venues than I would care to see another glass tower. I'd rather see more residents DT in midrise multifamily buildings than high profile HQs that empty out at nights and weekends.
I'd like to see the same thing. So when is Raleigh going to start doing this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77
Highrises and traditional urban settings are not the same thing.
No, I think you're mistaken on this one. Raleigh's "traditional urban setting" is its downtown. However, much of Raleigh's growth over the years has been non-downtown locations. Cities like Atlanta, Miami, Austin, and Charlotte have grown tremendously in their respective "traditional urban settings" (ie, the central cities). Raleigh has not. This is not me "bashing" Raleigh. This is just me telling it like it is. Research Triangle Park is (and has been since the 1950s) the triangle's growth catalyst. The growth magnet for that area has never been a "traditional urban setting". Make sense now? If not, take a trip there and you will see it for yourself.
No, I think you're mistaken on this one. Raleigh's "traditional urban setting" is its downtown. However, much of Raleigh's growth over the years has been non-downtown locations. Cities like Atlanta, Miami, Austin, and Charlotte have grown tremendously in their respective "traditional urban settings" (ie, the central cities). Raleigh has not. This is not me "bashing" Raleigh. This is just me telling it like it is. Research Triangle Park is (and has been since the 1950s) the triangle's growth catalyst. The growth magnet for that area has never been a "traditional urban setting". Make sense now? If not, take a trip there and you will see it for yourself.
When I said you were mistaken in equating the two, the two things I was referring to were a traditional urban setting and highrises. You said Raleigh didn't have the former and cited lack of the latter as proof. I'm not saying that Raleigh does have an appropriate "traditional urban setting" for a midsized Sunbelt city that only really started getting ramped up about 20 years ago, but if that's not the case, it's not because it's not throwing up trophy towers left and right.
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