Best Measure of a Region (Boston, cons, size, south)

[18Montclair]

CSA is the best measure for combined metro areas.

MSA is the best measure for uncombined metro areas.

We see the entire scope of a region's size through these 2 measures imo.

Urban Areas are totally irrelevant in regards to measuring the true size of a metro region.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Sarcony121

New York and Philadelphia will never merge as UA, CSA, or MSA. I have direct knowledge of the census revisions and that will never occur.

Dont forsee MSA ever though the UAs already connect and based on 2010 commuter data Mercer meets the 2000 MSA criteria with NYC and with that Burlington county exceeds the CSA linkage for the Philly MSA and the NYC MSA should the same criteria be utilized. The census also released a potential UA conglomeration that does attach these UAs (they are continuouly developed as a UA already), whether they revise remains to be seen.

Glimpse of What the New Urban Area's (UA) will look like in 2010: New York approaching 30 Million

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Sarcony121

That thread you just referenced is nothing more than proposals for "Urban Agglomerations" which are UA's or UC's that border one another with continuous developed tracts.

The proof is in the source provided by that OP, if you look at it states it. The picture where it lists conglomerations states "Census 2000 UAs contained within the potential agglomeration". Independent UA's and UC's under virtually one urban agglomeration. The paragraph before the chart on the Federal Registrar proclaims the basis of which urban agglomerations exist and the paragraph after the chart states the criterion for combining actual UA's and UC's. In broader context UA's can absorb UC's which contain less than the 50,000 person threshold but UA's above 1 million cannot absorb UA's above 1 million hence Washington and Baltimore not being combined any earlier or San Francisco and San Jose. UA's can only move their borders based on where the boundaries restrict them at MSA level.

Here is a paraphrase on that:
"Similar to the delineation process used for the 2000 Census, the Census Bureau will use the same automated urban area delineation methodology for determining urban and rural areas in the 2010 Census. Use of this approach will result in some exceptionally large urban agglomerations of continuously developed territory. Although such areas do reflect the reality of urbanization at one scale, the areas may be cumbersome and less satisfactory for more localized applications.

For example, an area of virtually continuous urbanization exists from northeastern Maryland through the Philadelphia area, central New Jersey, the New York City area, and central Connecticut to beyond Springfield, MA. This area of near-continuous urbanization encompasses nine UAs defined for Census 2000. Another area of continuous urbanization exists in the San Francisco Bay area, including the San Francisco-Oakland, San Jose, and several smaller areas.Show citation box

The Census Bureau anticipates that many data users would find these large agglomerations to be inconvenient for meaningful analysis, and therefore, proposes that they be split in some consistent fashion. For example, the Census Bureau split large agglomerations for Census 2000 by using metropolitan statistical area and primary metropolitan statistical area (PMSA) boundaries as a guide to identify the narrowest area along the high density “corridor” between larger core areas. For instance, the corridor of high residential population density between Baltimore, MD, and Washington, DC, was narrowest in northern Prince George's County, MD, in the area of Beltsville, MD, and near the boundary between the Washington PMSA and the Baltimore PMSA".

In a nutshell, UA's and the territory they present can only be within the broader boundaries of an MSA, not much more than that I would believe. My vote for this thread goes towards MSA since its boundaries and definitions seem to affect the definitions of the other metrics presented. Its easier for Philadelphia & New York to become a CSA one day than it is for them to become a combined UA, since that strongly depends on MSA. There is no doubt that Philadelphia & New York are one Urban Agglomeration but for them to become one Urban Area is a lot tougher.

Also kidphilly, good to hear from you. Hope all is well.

You as well can only guess what incarnation this might be.

This to me then will likely have similar scrutiny to the prior contructs then for MSA/UA. Just as how SF/SJ should be one there are other areas where the criteria fails to adequetly account for real world dynamics and connectivity. This to me is the failings of using county lines as the delineator. I would love to see movement to tracts/blocks for MSA assignment as this would improve on accuracy of these metrics. Similar to the movement from block groups to tracts on the UA example in the link

[rnc2mbfl]

Originally Posted by HtownLove

y'all know it is a multi option poll right? You can pick more than one answer


City Populations:

1. New York, New York (pop 8,213,839)
2. Los Angeles, California (pop 3,794,640)
3. Chicago, Illinois (pop 2,824,584)
4. Houston, Texas (pop 2,076,189)
5. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (pop 1,517,628)
6. Phoenix, Arizona (pop 1,476,331)
7. San Diego, California (pop 1,284,347)
8. San Antonio, Texas (pop 1,258,733)
9. Dallas, Texas (pop 1,246,185)
10. Detroit, Michigan (pop 921,147)
11. San Jose, California (pop 908,870)
12. Indianapolis, Indiana (pop 789,250)
13. Jacksonville, Florida (pop 786,938)
14. San Francisco, California (pop 777,660)
15. Columbus, Ohio (pop 738,782)
16. Austin, Texas (pop 708,293)
17. Memphis, Tennessee (pop 680,515)
18. Baltimore, Maryland (pop 640,064)
19. Charlotte, North Carolina (pop 634,059)
20. Fort Worth, Texas (pop 622,311)
21. Boston, Massachusetts (pop 609,690)
22. Milwaukee, Wisconsin (pop 602,057)
23. El Paso, Texas (pop 587,400)
24. Washington, District of Columbia (pop 582,049)
25. Nashville-Davidson, Tennessee (pop 579,748)
26. Seattle, Washington (pop 575,719)
27. Denver, Colorado (pop 561,323)
28. Las Vegas, Nevada (pop 544,806)
29. Portland, Oregon (pop 534,093)
30. Oklahoma City, Oklahoma (pop 532,006)
31. Tucson, Arizona (pop 528,483)
32. Albuquerque, New Mexico (pop 496,801)
33. Atlanta, Georgia (pop 483,108)
34. Long Beach, California (pop 467,851)
35. Kansas City, Missouri (pop 463,985)
36. Fresno, California (pop 456,574)
37. New Orleans, Louisiana (pop 455,188)
38. Cleveland, Ohio (pop 449,188)
39. Sacramento, California (pop 448,842)
40. Mesa, Arizona (pop 448,520)
41. Virginia Beach, Virginia (pop 437,464)
42. Omaha, Nebraska (pop 432,148)
43. Colorado Springs, Colorado (pop 393,795)
44. Oakland, California (pop 392,112)
45. Miami, Florida (pop 390,768)
46. Tulsa, Oklahoma (pop 381,017)
47. Minneapolis, Minnesota (pop 375,641)
48. Honolulu, Hawaii (pop 375,111)
49. Arlington, Texas (pop 361,043)
50. Wichita, Kansas (pop 354,524)
51. St. Louis, Missouri (pop 352,572)
52. Raleigh, North Carolina (pop 348,699)


MSA:
Table of United States Metropolitan Statistical Areas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

CSA:
Table of United States Combined Statistical Areas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Old UA's:
List of United States urban areas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These are old and inaccurate numbers and rankings of cities proper.

[HtownLove]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

Actually I think MSA and CSA have their own flws that show funny things

One good thing on UA is it has an actual developed and connected threshold tied to connecting places and not county borders

I wish MSA and CSA were census tract driven at this point, they would then make more sense overall

Though all serve a purpose and have valuable aspects

On region to me DMA can be valuable as well as it connects the media and connectivity to which people identify

The Country's Largest Television Markets | Metro Jacksonville

DMA is nonsense and doesn't reflect cities at all.

The Denver DMA reaches into like 10 big states.
By DMA Tampa is Bigger than Miami.

DMA is the worst of these metrics

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by HtownLove

DMA is nonsense and doesn't reflect cities at all.

The Denver DMA reaches into like 10 big states.
By DMA Tampa is Bigger than Miami.

DMA is the worst of these metrics

all have their flaws. IMHO it does a better job than do MSA for Philly as an example. Just because a job center in another MSA is 15 minutes away doesnt mean these people are affiliated with the city that is 60 miles away when compared to the one that is 15

[Ben Around]

If you mean what level of geographical area gives the best feel for what makes the area unique, I'd say city. With notable exceptions, a metro area's burbs, exurbs and surrounding rural areas tend to be generic, "anywhere USA", while the original city areas would be most distinctive. You have to go to the source to see what an area is all about.

[1greatcity]

For some cities, even the CSA doesn't accurately measure the entire region. Obvious examples are San Diego (Tijuana is excluded), Detroit (Windsor is excluded), and El Paso (Juarez is excluded). Given that, there is no perfect method to compare all cities. It will always be apples to oranges.

[blkgiraffe]

Excluding city limits; they're all good ways of measuring a region, but all have their flaws or some exceptions. MSA is great for most, but than you look at regions like DFW and realize Dallas nor Fort Worth alone have entire influence or power over the region; it's shared. Sunbelt cities influences go farther than that of the Northern cities because of how sprawled out our cities are and that's why sometimes our MSA maybe larger in size and population.

[HtownLove]

Originally Posted by blkgiraffe

Excluding city limits; they're all good ways of measuring a region, but all have their flaws or some exceptions. MSA is great for most, but than you look at regions like DFW and realize Dallas nor Fort Worth alone have entire influence or power over the region; it's shared. Sunbelt cities influences go farther than than of the Northern cities because of how sprawled out our cities are and that's why sometimes our CSA may larger in size and population.

have you seen the size of the NY, DC, Philly and Boston CSA's??

those things are just as big as the Sunbelt ones.

NY CSA is 12,000 sq miles. Bigger than any Southern CSA.
Its when you go west you see the really huge CSAs like Denver, LA, SLC, Vegas. Or huge MSA's like Phoenix