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View Poll Results: Which has a better Downtown
Philadelphia 99 56.90%
Seattle 75 43.10%
Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 11-16-2011, 11:05 AM
 
Location: The City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orzo View Post
Queen Anne is not even one of the the denser adjacent neighborhoods, though. First Hill, Capitol Hill (in the real definition of the niehgborhood, not City Data's huge boundaries), and the U District all have PPSM of over 16,000. The highest tracts have PPSMs of 45,000
Fair point but also remember that First and Capital Hill are already included in the comparative 60K presented in the nearly 3 sq mile footprint. So from that perspective are already accounted for in the comparison.

The nest set in Philly in this comparison are closer in, more urban, more dense, and more cohesive (also more walkable)

QA is a fine neighborhood but not the most urban places adjoining a DT, that to many may actually be a good thing but the neighborhoods you descibed are already included in the footprint provided by Seattle folks. Whereas in Philly places like No Libs, G-ho, Bella Vista, U Citu, Queen Village, Fairmont/Art Museum, Loft District etc directly bording CC (some 3 minutes in walk to the CBD) and with ppsm between 20-30K ppsm are not. This was the point of QA as an example. Again that QA is close and less urban may be seen as an advantage to some but from a continuity of urbanity there are significant differences.
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Old 11-16-2011, 11:51 AM
 
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Centercityphila.org puts center city population at 57,000 in a 2.6 square mile area . And 179,000 in a 7.8 square mile area including the surrounding center city. as of 2011.
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Arroyo Grande, California
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^^if thats true, thats really not that high for the core.
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:28 PM
 
Location: DC Suburbs of Maryland (by way of PA)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironcouger View Post
Centercityphila.org puts center city population at 57,000 in a 2.6 square mile area . And 179,000 in a 7.8 square mile area including the surrounding center city. as of 2011.
Conversely, looking at Census Tracts 81-85 in Seattle, which appear to encompass a pretty wide "downtown" range, the 2010 population stands at 17,956.

2010 Census Interactive Population Map
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
Fair point but also remember that First and Capital Hill are already included in the comparative 60K presented in the nearly 3 sq mile footprint. So from that perspective are already accounted for in the comparison.

The nest set in Philly in this comparison are closer in, more urban, more dense, and more cohesive (also more walkable)

QA is a fine neighborhood but not the most urban places adjoining a DT, that to many may actually be a good thing but the neighborhoods you descibed are already included in the footprint provided by Seattle folks. Whereas in Philly places like No Libs, G-ho, Bella Vista, U Citu, Queen Village, Fairmont/Art Museum, Loft District etc directly bording CC (some 3 minutes in walk to the CBD) and with ppsm between 20-30K ppsm are not. This was the point of QA as an example. Again that QA is close and less urban may be seen as an advantage to some but from a continuity of urbanity there are significant differences.
I'd say Lower Queen Anne, the adjacent part to DT, is definitely an urban area.

Also, there's no way that International District, Pioneer Square, Belltown and Capitol Hill are all within 3 square miles. Even the image below, which doesn't include Capitol Hill (what the map refers to as "Pike-Pine" is considered to be only a small portion of Capitol Hill), is more than 3 square miles. And this map DOESN'T include adjacent neighborhoods Lower Queen Anne, South Lake Union/Cascade, and Capitol Hill (which goes all the way up to Roy and out to 19th):


http://www.stroupecondoblog.com/wp-c...d_location.gif
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Arroyo Grande, California
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Dunno how true, but this source puts DT Seattle at nearly 60,000 population

Downtown Seattle Association | Demographics
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relegate View Post
I'd say Lower Queen Anne, the adjacent part to DT, is definitely an urban area.

Also, there's no way that International District, Pioneer Square, Belltown and Capitol Hill are all within 3 square miles. Even the image below, which doesn't include Capitol Hill (what the map refers to as "Pike-Pine" is considered to be only a small portion of Capitol Hill), is more than 3 square miles. And this map DOESN'T include adjacent neighborhoods Lower Queen Anne, South Lake Union/Cascade, and Capitol Hill (which goes all the way up to Roy and out to 19th):


http://www.stroupecondoblog.com/wp-c...d_location.gif
The center city of Seattle including Bell town , parts of First Hill, Capitol hill is a dense area about one mile wide and three miles long it equals 2.8 square miles and 60,000 people.
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:41 PM
 
Location: DC Suburbs of Maryland (by way of PA)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slo1318 View Post
Dunno how true, but this source puts DT Seattle at nearly 60,000 population

Downtown Seattle Association | Demographics
Organizations like the Downtown Seattle Association and Center City District will of course try to make the residential numbers seem more robust than they actually are, specifically by including residential areas that are not traditionally considered "downtown." They do this because they have an interest in attracting investment, businesses, etc., so, yes, I'm sure that's not technically accurate.

The only accurate source that we all have is using Census data based on tracts.
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:48 PM
 
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Wikipedia takes a shot at putting a number to it: "Center City, or Downtown Philadelphia includes the central business district and central neighborhoods of the City of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States. As of 2005, its population of over 88,000 made it the third most populous downtown in the United States, after New York City's and Chicago's."

Even if Center City Philly's population is pegged at 57,000, compare that to about 40,000 for downtown L.A. as well as lower Manhattan, and Chicago's famous 'loop' has a population of only 16,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_City,_Philadelphia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
Organizations like the Downtown Seattle Association and Center City District will of course try to make the residential numbers seem more robust than they actually are, specifically by including residential areas that are not traditionally considered "downtown." They do this because they have an interest in attracting investment, businesses, etc., so, yes, I'm sure that's not technically accurate.

The only accurate source that we all have is using Census data based on tracts.

Last edited by one more thing; 11-16-2011 at 01:06 PM..
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Old 11-16-2011, 01:56 PM
 
Location: The City
19,327 posts, read 16,646,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironcouger View Post
The center city of Seattle including Bell town , parts of First Hill, Capitol hill is a dense area about one mile wide and three miles long it equals 2.8 square miles and 60,000 people.

This makes perfect sense based on this and source the US census:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
In looking at this

2010 Census data: Seattle


DT Seattle looks like a population of 18K over the .9 sq miles of DT/Belltown/Pioneer Sq with a density of 20.3K, pretty decent, a similar 1 sq mile to most DTs in comparison

To me I always thought of First Hill and Capital Hill which always felt mostly a bit of an extension of the DT, with these the population goes to 52K, not sure these areas would really be considered DT for Seattle but a case could be made for them. These 5 neighborhoods have a collective density of 23.4K over a little more 2.2 sq miles (actually pretty large in terms of sq mileage when compared to many other cities DTs or what is included).

These numbers make a lot of sense to me as to me the density of the Seattle DT always feels under the likes of Boston and Philly though above most DTs in the US. It also makes sense that when looking at places like Queen Anne/Cascade/Squire Park and the next set of neighborhoods from the DT the densisty drops pretty significantly in Seattle
And as far as the ~60K in CC Philly this would also match this also the US Census and in 1.1 sq miles (Actually 57K to be precise)

The 2010 Census | Philly

Quote:
Originally Posted by slo1318 View Post
^^if thats true, thats really not that high for the core.

which translates to this: Actually more tha 50K ppsm (maybe you consider it not that high for the core.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
For purposes of this thread I will say Belltown, the CBD, and Pioneer Sq would all be considered Seattle's DT. And Philly CC East and West.


So the comparison

Center City Philly 1.1 sq miles and 57K (52K ppsm)
DT Seattle .9 sq miles and 18K (20k ppsm)

Extending to the next set the disparity actually becomes more pronounced
which is also supported by this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
Conversely, looking at Census Tracts 81-85 in Seattle, which appear to encompass a pretty wide "downtown" range, the 2010 population stands at 17,956.

2010 Census Interactive Population Map

As far as this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironcouger View Post
Centercityphila.org puts center city population at 57,000 in a 2.6 square mile area . And 179,000 in a 7.8 square mile area including the surrounding center city. as of 2011.
Also remember that U City is not included in the CCD studies as is managed by a different entity - the 179K includes area no one considers DT like Point Breeze etc. and excludes the areas within 1 block of Center City U City directly borders the CBD actually (far more populated and connected and includes nearly 50K college stundent alone between Penn and Drexel).

Based on the 2010 US Census data the 5.7 mile core of Philly U City plus Washinton to Girard and river to river is 182K

And the area between Vine and Pine and river to river is 57K based on the US Census 2010 data (source above) and not 2. whatever miles it is 1.1 (1.4 if you include the vacant port and warehouse space along the DE waterfront). Not sure where the 2.2 mile reference came from. Most references actually use SG to South and front to 24th as the defined DT of Philly and this is where the 90K number comes from and this is 1.4 sq miles.

Oddly this is what is planned for currently nearly uninhabited waterfront space.

10/12/2011
[SIZE=5]The Future of the Festival Pier[/SIZE]





The Festival Pier, located at the foot of Spring Garden Street on the water front, is one of the major focal points for the revitalization of the Central Delaware waterfront. The pier currently host a long list of public events throughout the year, mostly during the spring and summer months. But all of this is soon to change, with plans of establishing Spring Garden as a greenway from the Delaware to the Schuylkill, and increasing density around and on the pier, which will drastically change the programming and use of the site. Increased density will certainly make this site a 365 destination anchored by residences, live work units, and entertainment.




Last edited by kidphilly; 11-16-2011 at 02:11 PM..
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