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View Poll Results: Which has a better Downtown
Philadelphia 192 62.34%
Seattle 116 37.66%
Voters: 308. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-30-2012, 09:03 AM
 
Location: The City
22,379 posts, read 38,796,438 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
Interesting report that you cite, but the boundaries that they use for Philadelphia (Vine to South and River to River) are a very strict definition of Center City.

If you've ever explored Center City, you'd know there is a fairly distinct demarcation of the northern boundary (Vine Street Expressway), but the southern boundary absolutely is indistinct -- blending right into other neighborhoods like the Graduate Hospital, Queen Village and Bella Vista. These neighborhoods have become very revitalized and particularly affluent in the past couple of decades. Areas to the direct north of Center City (Fairmount/Brewerytown and Northern Liberties) have seen very similar trends.

My main point is that Center City is by no means an island and vibrancy in adjacent neighborhoods is building because of their proximity to Center City. As a result, the traditional boundaries of the CBD seem somewhat arbitrary, as Philly is doing a fantastic job of linking downtown vibrancy to adjacent neighborhoods, despite some physical boundaries. This is really snowballing to make a much more coherent, integrated city over time.
Agreed; the final sentence of the post seems way off of reality

and most of this article is about areas around Center City not in Center City
Center City gets younger - Philly.com
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:34 PM
 
Location: In the heights
37,027 posts, read 39,106,503 times
Reputation: 21071
I'll add that Seattle's mass transit system is surprisingly good. It doesn't have nearly the same amount of infrastructure as Philly, but it's much better run. The bus system is very extensive and Seattle actually has an app to tell you where the next bus is. The entire system is remarkably clean and I've never been treated so nicely by mass transit employees. There's a simple and quick rfid system rather than ridiculous tokens--so despite not being anywhere near as built out as Philadelphia, I'd actually give mass transit to Seattle which should be ridiculous.

SEPTA seriously needs to figure itself out, because Philly is just wasting a lot of that infrastructure.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:41 PM
 
Location: The City
22,379 posts, read 38,796,438 times
Reputation: 7975
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I'll add that Seattle's mass transit system is surprisingly good. It doesn't have nearly the same amount of infrastructure as Philly, but it's much better run. The bus system is very extensive and Seattle actually has an app to tell you where the next bus is. The entire system is remarkably clean and I've never been treated so nicely by mass transit employees. There's a simple and quick rfid system rather than ridiculous tokens--so despite not being anywhere near as built out as Philadelphia, I'd actually give mass transit to Seattle which should be ridiculous.

SEPTA seriously needs to figure itself out, because Philly is just wasting a lot of that infrastructure.

This I can agree with

On the bus app (sounds similar actually)
TransitView: SEPTA unveils real-time bus and trolley app, also SMS and smartphone schedules — Technically Philly



Sadly Philly has today maybe the most underutilized extensive PT system; but on ridership or caverage especially in the DT honestly there is no comparison, though would suspect anywheres employees would be nicer...

There is once again hopes on the transit card; will work with PATCO, PATH, NJT, and NYC subway once set forth; basically septa is the hold up as these systems (sans Septa) already co talk)
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
7,264 posts, read 10,546,207 times
Reputation: 8813
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I'll add that Seattle's mass transit system is surprisingly good. It doesn't have nearly the same amount of infrastructure as Philly, but it's much better run. The bus system is very extensive and Seattle actually has an app to tell you where the next bus is. The entire system is remarkably clean and I've never been treated so nicely by mass transit employees. There's a simple and quick rfid system rather than ridiculous tokens--so despite not being anywhere near as built out as Philadelphia, I'd actually give mass transit to Seattle which should be ridiculous.

SEPTA seriously needs to figure itself out, because Philly is just wasting a lot of that infrastructure.
For all that people complain about SEPTA, it's efficiency is not the problem, and it really is making some fantastic improvements. I've only once had a significant problem with its service (bus). My more frequent experiences with the regional rail system and subway system efficiency are tremendous. The latest new regional rail cars have also really enhanced the system greatly in terms of modernization.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fDJUsg1nu8

SEPTA is currently installing open fare technology over the next few years, which will put it into the forefront of transit agency payment systems nationwide when it is fully implemented:

SEPTA | New Payment Technology
http://www.masstransitmag.com/press_...ayment-systems

The biggest gripe I have with SEPTA is its extremely antiquated rail and subway stations (although slowly they are being modernized), but again, this is not the agency's fault, as both Pennsylvania has not given the system a fair shake and the federal government has essentially favored "new start" transit systems over older systems. Hopefully Congress will one day gets its act together and systems like SEPTA can start to get the dedicated funding it deserves.

Even with its challenges, SEPTA is a very good system, especially by American standards.

Last edited by Duderino; 03-30-2012 at 01:23 PM..
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:15 PM
 
Location: In the heights
37,027 posts, read 39,106,503 times
Reputation: 21071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
For all that people complain about SEPTA, it's efficiency is not the problem, and it really is making some fantastic improvements. I've only once had a significant problem with its service (bus). My more frequent experiences with the regional rail system and subway system efficiency are tremendous. The latest new regional rail cars have also really enhanced the system greatly in terms of modernization.


SEPTA Silverliner Adventure footage - YouTube

SEPTA is currently installing open fare technology over the next few years, which will put it into the forefront of transit agency payment systems nationwide when it is fully implemented:

SEPTA | New Payment Technology
SEPTA Installs One of the Nation's First Open Fare Payment Systems

The biggest gripe I have with SEPTA is its extremely antiquated rail and subway stations (although slowly they are being modernized), but again, this is not the agency's fault, as both Pennsylvania has not given the system a fair shake and the federal government has essentially favored "new start" transit systems over older systems. Hopefully Congress will one day gets its act together and systems like SEPTA can start to get the dedicated funding it deserves.

Even with its challenges, SEPTA is a very good system, especially by American standards.
Oh, I definitely agree that SEPTA is very good by American standards (though pretty terrible compared to peer cities in other developed countries (and some developing countries as well)). It's also modernizing to some extent, though it's getting these things pretty slowly compared to Seattle which already has unified rfid cards and has had those bus transit apps for a good long while. And while Philly will likely eventually get what Seattle has now, the difference in terms of how progressive the agencies of the two cities are means that Seattle will likely continue to implement new things to improve transit well before Philly does. Though, of course, this can change--it'd be much better if they both improved rapidly.

The surprise for me has more to do with Seattle itself. On paper, its system looks really limited. In practice, what they actually do with the system makes it nice. Small things like bus drivers that don't seem pissed, fairly frequent bus service with routes the make a good deal of sense, a downtown free ride area, free wifi on some routes, etc. made up for a lot of those deficiencies.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Bella Vista
2,471 posts, read 4,008,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Oh, I definitely agree that SEPTA is very good by American standards (though pretty terrible compared to peer cities in other developed countries (and some developing countries as well)). It's also modernizing to some extent, though it's getting these things pretty slowly compared to Seattle which already has unified rfid cards and has had those bus transit apps for a good long while. And while Philly will likely eventually get what Seattle has now, the difference in terms of how progressive the agencies of the two cities are means that Seattle will likely continue to implement new things to improve transit well before Philly does. Though, of course, this can change--it'd be much better if they both improved rapidly.

The surprise for me has more to do with Seattle itself. On paper, its system looks really limited. In practice, what they actually do with the system makes it nice. Small things like bus drivers that don't seem pissed, fairly frequent bus service with routes the make a good deal of sense, a downtown free ride area, free wifi on some routes, etc. made up for a lot of those deficiencies.
This is especially appreciated as a tourist. While in seattle we relied on their PT, and it worked quite well. Their system is incredibly successful and they have obviously put a lot of time into making it easy and accessible.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it even comes close to comparing to septa which is a system that is simply well beyond Seattle's in term of infrastructure. But whereas Seattle operates far better in practice than one would expect, Philly is sort of the opposite, constantly underutilized, constantly failing to adapt. And if you're a tourist? As simple as Septa really is, good luck figuring it out, they make it very inaccessible... especially their bus lines.

Again, Septa is clearly one of the best transportation systems in the country but I don't give any credit to septa themselves. They inherited one of the best systems in the country when they took everything over back in the 60s. In fact one could argue the system was even better back then, and since they've been destroying miles and miles and of light rail track, meanwhile their improvements have been minimal.

If only Septa had the type of vision and management of seattle's transportation authority.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:32 PM
 
Location: The City
22,379 posts, read 38,796,438 times
Reputation: 7975
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Oh, I definitely agree that SEPTA is very good by American standards (though pretty terrible compared to peer cities in other developed countries (and some developing countries as well)). It's also modernizing to some extent, though it's getting these things pretty slowly compared to Seattle which already has unified rfid cards and has had those bus transit apps for a good long while. And while Philly will likely eventually get what Seattle has now, the difference in terms of how progressive the agencies of the two cities are means that Seattle will likely continue to implement new things to improve transit well before Philly does. Though, of course, this can change--it'd be much better if they both improved rapidly.

The surprise for me has more to do with Seattle itself. On paper, its system looks really limited. In practice, what they actually do with the system makes it nice. Small things like bus drivers that don't seem pissed, fairly frequent bus service with routes the make a good deal of sense, a downtown free ride area, free wifi on some routes, etc. made up for a lot of those deficiencies.

Understood though while a little outdated and older and having additional underused capacity (not the wosrt thing as it can handle many more people with vitually no changes) it is very effecient in the DT of Philly and with 14 (or 16 depending on where you draw the CC borders the system is not bad at all really and very comprehensive in this area.


Frankford Train Departing 5th Street - YouTube


PATCO (Subway between Philadelphia and New Jersey) - YouTube


The Philadelphia Subway (Metro). USA - YouTube
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Center City
7,528 posts, read 10,224,755 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benleis View Post
Center city feels more like an island. Yes there are 1 million+ other residents around it but do they really interact much?

Ben
I assume you are interested in an answer to this question. If you have visited Phildalephia, more than likely you spent most of your time in Center City. We did on our first visit. On our second, we explored some of the adjacent neighborhoods including Northern Liberties, Queen Village and Bella Vista.

We live here now - in Center City. I would venture to guess we spend about 90% of our time taking advantage of what's outide our door, given the wealth of everything within a one mile radius. That said, we do venture by foot to the adjacent neighborhoods. We have made friends in Graduate Hospital and Fairmont. We have walked to restaurants in those neighborhoods, as well, in addtion to places in Northern Liberties, Chinatown, Queen Village, Bella Vista, Passyunk and University City. In fact, we are walking to a restaurant in Graduate Hospital tonight. All of these places are outside the traditional "Pine to Vine" boundaries.

This is a good map that shows the lay-out of the neighborhoods:


The 2010 Census | Philly

All the neighborhoods adjacent to CC are in growth mode. From my perceptive, CC is not an island.
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Old 03-31-2012, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
5,861 posts, read 15,209,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
Well I think the post was a little ambitious

But outside of shopping I dont see one of the criteria where there is at best an argument either way and on the categories of vibrancy, culture, museums, arts, public art, bars, transportation, and population I am not sure a realistic argument can be made on Seattles behalf
The post wasn't ambitious at all imo. And as you can see it didn't turn out to be the wipe out you probably predicted.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:41 AM
 
Location: The City
22,379 posts, read 38,796,438 times
Reputation: 7975
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwright1 View Post
The post wasn't ambitious at all imo. And as you can see it didn't turn out to be the wipe out you probably predicted.
Seattle is a very good DT as is Philly. Seattle punches above its weight IMHO. Which is a great thing. Honestly on the whole to me they are still on two slightly different tiers. Though would imagine that many not familiar with both would give the edge to Seattle on reputation. Seattle gets a lot of hype, while very good to me a little overdone. To me the good news is both continue to get better and as someone whole likes the amentities provided by good DTs this is a good thing. Both of these DTs continue more and more residents and increasing their vibrancy and amentities.

And on prediction; if I had to guess this is about what I would suspect honestly; people have preference and some people will like Seatte more than Philly and vice versa. To me Philly is not dramatically offering more in the DT; but on the whole it does so the results seem rather in line with preference albeit to me Seattle gets a little more love and Philly a little less on the whole on the perception quotient. Seattle is newer and cleaner and more progressive city with great continued upside. I like Seattle and would consider it top 10 DT in the US; for Philly to me it is among the top 5; they are not that far apart as the poll also demonstrates.
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