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View Poll Results: KC vs Sac
Kansas City 78 50.65%
Sacramento 76 49.35%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-27-2012, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
11,108 posts, read 23,696,479 times
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NorCal

I agree with most of your points, but I have to disagree on the density thing.

Look at these maps. Sac looks pretty built out in the city limits. Then look at kcmo's map. The annexed portions of the city outside of 435 and north of the river is suburban and much is still undeveloped. The suburbs around these areas are more dense than the outskirts of kcmo city limits. The density of the "city" (inside of 435 and south of the river) is not a city with a density of 1600 psm. It doesn't feel like that nor look like that. If you have ever been to KC, how you can honestly say that? If you look at the map of kcmo and zoom in, you would see the area north of gladstone is about the size of the original city limits and is mostly undeveloped. That seriously throws off the stats for the entire city. What if Sac annexed land up to sunset blvd in that map? Would that make the city feel any less dense even though it would reduce its official density?

Sacramento, CA - Google Maps

Kansas City, MO - Google Maps

I do agree with you that KC's residential urban fabric is not directly connected to the CBD because KC's CBD is surrounded by warehouse districts and other mixed use areas like Crown Center. But those areas are far from decaying. They are now primarily residential and office districts in mostly renovated buildings. KC's plaza is very much like many downtown areas though and it is surrounded by a bowl of highrises and neighborhoods beyond those.

I didn't say Sac was not a tourist destination, but I do think that KC offers more to tourists as far as large city attractions. KC has a lot of attractions that Sac doesn't have because you have the bay area so close. Why would people in the bay area drive to Sac to see a ball game or go to an amusement park etc?

I'm sure you are right on the university scene as that is one of KC's biggest downfalls. You have the better weather, the better scenery and far less crime and ghetto.

I would probably choose Sac myself over KC just because of that and the fact that it's so close to the bay area and mountains. But would not live in sac if it were not so close to those areas because it doesn't quite stack up as a stand alone city even though its population is not that different than KC's.

You are describing KC like how I would describe Oklahoma City. Very low density and not a lot to do. That's just not the case.

Tell me how this city looks like a city of 1600 per square mile

http://www.city-data.com/forum/kansa...sing-kcmo.html

I just looked at the densities of kcmo vs sac and they are both 3-7k in most central city zip codes, so about the same. Sac probably has the edge, but main just because kcmo has so many industrial areas mixed in while sac has more continuous residential.

Last edited by kcmo; 01-27-2012 at 04:42 PM..
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Old 01-27-2012, 06:46 PM
 
1,348 posts, read 2,845,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shindig View Post
The poll says otherwise - KC 70%, SAC 30%
Well, its also because most people have a blank slate when they think of Sac. they don't know anything about this city, while people know some things about KC. Doesn't necessarily mean KC is better.
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:01 PM
 
Location: San Leandro
4,576 posts, read 9,125,194 times
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-kcmo,

I get what you are saying, sort of like how LA's density gets skewed due to uninhabited mountains.

But the area you are talking about is less than 100 sq miles. But to be generous let's say that it is. Even with that factored in KC would still have 200 sq miles or so of developed area. Not as noticeable as the numbers would suggest, I can agree-but still noticeably(2x the land) different from Sac Imo.


I'm not really following the logic that because Sac is so close to the bay, we do not have any attractions. You do realize Sacramento is one of the oldest cities in California and at one time had nothing but rural land between it and SF? The city had to make its own amenities.

It's not like people here are like "awe shucks, were so close to Bay Area Let's close down all the museums and art galleries , get rid of the bars, shut down light rail ,and stop the symphony." LOL.

It is true that Sacramento is lacking in Sports, but almost every California metro is. That's just how it is here. Sac is a 2 million plus metro with one pro team. To put that in perspective, LA County has 10 million people and has 5 teams. So that's a ratio of one pro team for every 2 million people. (LA people don't root for OC teams). SD and OC do a bit better , but only the bay area is fully loaded -5 teams w/ 7million people, all sports covered.

People in Sac can also see ballgames right here. We have a AAA team and check this out http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/05/04/MNNS1D9GQU.DTL

Quote:
On April 16, they were outdrawn by their top minor-league team, the Sacramento River Cats, 14,014 to 12,225.
So don't go knockin' sac's baseball scene just yet, sometimes we give our MLB affiliate the Athletics some competition in attendance



And we do have an amusement park, Raging Waters is right there at the Cal Expo http://www.rwsac.com/_site/information.html

Quote:
Located in the heart of the city, Raging Waters Sacramento features more than 25 exhilarating water attractions, breath-taking slides, crystal clear pools and fun-filled activities for children and adults of all ages.
I mean everyone talks about how hot Sac is in the summer.... when people go to amusement parks, doesn't this make more sense to have a water theme park?

I think its funny that you say Sac does not stack up, but we have a plethora of midwest transplants including myself who disagree with you there. We enjoy the California lifestyle in the Sac area with the midwest prices. Everyone has whats good for them, just as many people are fine with KC.

And again, that's not to say I don't like KC or the people. Hell I never said Kc was boring, KC knows how to party, HARD. I'm just saying that everything is a bit more spread out and auto centric. I'm originally from Chicago, and I don't think people are lesser because they are from a given area-at all. I'm just correcting some things you have wrong about Sac, just like you pointed out the quirks of KC's density.
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
11,108 posts, read 23,696,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal Dude View Post
-kcmo,


I'm not really following the logic that because Sac is so close to the bay, we do not have any attractions.
I never said that! .

You are taking my comments too personal.

I just hate it when people use kc's density stats against it. If you just look at stats, kcmo has a lower density rate than just about every city out there and the reality is the city is not like that.

As far as not stacking up, I mean KC has MLB, NFL, MLS and a major Speedway and host major college basketball tournaments and college football games. KC has some of the best sports facilities in the nation for a single city with newly renovated Arrowhead and Kauffman stadiums, the new Sprint Center (one of the busiest concert arenas in the world) and the new MLS soccer stadium. KC also has a popular minor league baseball team (not the royals!) a Central Hockey league team, an indoor soccer team, an indoor arena football team and a world team tennis team that plays downtown.

KC is the 12 largest gambling market in the country with several nice casinos including one of the largest in the country.

KC has an arts and theater culture that rivals cities many times its size including one of the country’s largest arts districts and the KC art institute. The City has several first class museums in addition to the Nelson Atkins. It has the World War 1 memorial which rivals anything here in DC. The negro leagues baseball museum, the American jazz museum, the steamboat museum, the kemper modern art museum and more.

The city just opened one of the most impressive performing arts centers in the world that would make places like LA and Chicago take a second look (if they knew such things existed in kc). Yet the city still has some great historic theaters both indoor and outdoor.

KC has a decent cedar fair theme park and two large water parks.

KC has a great zoo that should become one of the country’s better zoos due to a recent multi county tax to fund improvements.

KC has some amazing architecture from the art deco skyscrapers to the second largest train station in the country to the 1920’s era Spanish architecture of the plaza.

The city has three large urban entertainment districts for nightlife, one of the largest urban farmers markets in the country and the crown center complex with an aquarium, legoland, ice skating rink and mall is the “Rockefeller center†/ family friendly area.

The city host many large festivals, one of the country’s largest art shows, a major air show etc.

KC can generally compete with much larger cities when it comes to attractions and things to do. It’s the “big city†for 4-6 million people.

Having said all that, I would love for you to reply with a thorough post about Sacramento. We will be there on vacation this spring (also bay area) and would really like to take in as much of sac as possible. It’s been a few years since I have been there.
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Old 01-28-2012, 06:17 PM
 
Location: San Leandro
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I'm not taking anything personal, I have not insulted you and you have not insulted me. Why is it that people on CD get so worked up when people from San Jose, Sacramento, Atlanta, and Houston defend their cities?

Anyways as for Sac, NBA venue which hosts the kings-hopefully they stay. They play at power balance pavillion which hosts 200 events a year. We are hoping(well some of us are) to get a brand new arena built down town soon. We have a host of minor league venues, the most popular being the AAA ball team at Raley field. We have the Sacramento race way which is an NHRA member, if that is what you are into. Hot rods and drag racing of course being very popular in California. I think they have a moto cross area as well there.

We've got the California musical theater, the Sacramento community center theater, 24th st theater, and the sacramento theater company for performing arts venues.

Plenty of art gallerias. Sacramento has second Saturdays once a month where one can wine taste and check out the art galleries in midtown and enjoy live music. It was so successful that Oakland followed suit with "first Fridays" a few years later.

Sacramento museums include: the aerospace museum of California, California Auto Museum, California Foundry Museum, The California Museum, The state capitol museum, California state indian museum, California state military museum, California state rail road museum, Crocker Art Museum, Discovery science and space center, California pharmacy museum, Heidrick Ag history center, museum of medical history, Sacramento childrens museum, and more. They're also going to be building a new rail road tech museum.

Sac has a water theme park and funderland and fairtale town for theme parks if you are looking for something with younger children.

We also have a zoo, contrary to popular myth... and it has 609 animals. Less than SF's zoo but more than Oakland's zoo.

We have the american river bike path which stretches 32 miles from Sac to suburban Folsom. We have the large folsom lake for water actives(swimming, wakeboarding, water skiing, boating, fishing, jet ski's, etc.) and the American river- all with fresh mountain water run off, none of that polluted crap. We have beautiful suburbs in the sierra Nevada foot hills with camping, hiking, and mountain bike riding, heck sometimes even snow.

We have some of the best bmx trails and skateparks in the united states.

We host a ton of festivals and events, but the most popular are probably Hemp fest, second saturday, and the California state fair.

Our central city has way too many bars in its 4 square mile core . Look on yelp, its insane. I lost count after 50. And that is just the core. Everything from a mexican palomar to ritzy lounges. But most of these places are chill dives and sports bars. A dozen of these bars are what you would call nightclubs. Everything from Hip hop crowd to electronic to Salsa to Viagra. The core has 3 excellent breweries. Pyramid being the most well known.

We have five comedy clubs that I know of in the metro. Sac has an ice skating/hockey rink as does suburban roseville. There are alot of shopping malls. I am bais but The galleria and fountains of roseville serves as the regions shoping destination, similar to how woodfield mall is to the Chicago metro(it's the favorite).


And we do have an air show. Thunderbirds scheduled for September 8-9th this year. These are the same guys who will be flying at Chicago's air and water show. They're a pretty well known group.

That's cool you are coming to Sacramento. Be wary of coastal Californians who don't actually know anything about Sac misleading you. As you can clearly see, we do have stuff to do. All you gotta do is ask people in the SAC forum and we will try to direct you to what you are looking for.

Oh and if you want to see historic go to Sacs old town area, midtown area, and its east sac neighborhood. That's where most of the 1800's housing stock is. It ranges from gold rush era in old town to victorian era in parts of east sac. Old town folsom has some good historic parts as well.
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Old 01-28-2012, 09:48 PM
 
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KCMO - If you are coming to Sac, make sure to check out Second Saturday if you are coming in the summer.

If you need any recommendations on things to do, let me know, and I'll try my best to point you in the right direction! I hope you'll enjoy your time in Sac. We have a great ethnic cuisine scene, so you might want to check out some new cuisines that you may not have tried before.

Norcal - Very comprehensive and nice list. I just wanted to add, in 2014, Sacramento is anticipating a new and much enlarged Discovery and Science Museum, world class, and right on the river!
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
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Awesome, thanks for the info NorCal Dude and the follow up sacramento916. We will be there the first week of April, so once it gets closer I’ll probably hit you guys up for some more info.

Sac sounds a lot like KC as far as a city that is really unknown and even overlooked by the locals. I love midsized metros (2-4 million) so we will probably spend more time in Sac than in San Francisco.
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:38 AM
 
2,233 posts, read 3,132,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal Dude View Post
-kcmo,

I get what you are saying, sort of like how LA's density gets skewed due to uninhabited mountains.

But the area you are talking about is less than 100 sq miles. But to be generous let's say that it is.
KC's developed area is 169 square miles, with a population of 460K, so about 2700 ppsm.

The density of the urban core is about 4200 ppsm.
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
11,108 posts, read 23,696,479 times
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It's been six years, but I finally made it back to Sacramento!

Had a great time. Nice city.

To keep this on topic, I don't know why, but it felt much smaller than KC and certainly less urban even though they are about the same size population wise. Sacramento is definitely a city that feels smaller than it is when compared to other metros of 2-2.5 million people. Very little traffic, especially downtown etc.

But it's a really nice, green city with a lot of nice urban neighborhoods, but I think the only real thing Sac has that really stands out over KC is light rail (and proximity to SF bay area).

What are the plans for all that land in downtown Sac? I did helicopter aerials and the pilot said something about that being where the new arena is going. Didn't that used to be industrial? That could be developed nicely.

Like I said, I have not been to the Bay area in six years (probably the longest I have not been to any major city), and I came away from Sacramento with about the same impression I had before. Nice city, but in a weird shadow of SF or something.

San Jose was totally disappointing. I was expecting much more after all the smack from San Jose people in these forums. I'm sorry, but San Jose is just not that great of a place and in almost no way does it compare to Kansas City (I bring that up because of the KC vs San Jose thread).

San Francisco is what it is. One of the country's greatest and most interesting cities. I have been there a few times and it never disappoints.

The big surprise was Oakland. On this trip, Oakland really impressed me. Downtown is vibrant, it has some great urban hoods, lots of diversity, lots of urban renewal and investment and seems to be a good mix of grit/gentrification with some great views of both oakland and sf skylines.

Last edited by kcmo; 04-13-2012 at 04:46 PM..
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Old 04-13-2012, 07:28 PM
Status: ""...I wrote it down, now I follow thru..."" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: North Raleigh x North Sacramento
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I was born in Sac. I have tons of family still out there, including three brothers.

I havent been to either Sac or KC since January 2002, but for what my two cents are worth, Kansas City wins this one kinda easily...
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