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Old 04-29-2012, 04:32 PM
 
233 posts, read 528,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastphilly View Post
Cargo flights operate quite different from passenger operations. Cargo flights will stop at two differnt cities for cargo pick ups/drop offs before returning to their home base. I'm willing to bet that those Asain Cargo flights that land in Miami stopped at another US destination before landing in Miami. Anchorage, AK / Seattle, WA, etc.
I know that right now they stop at Anchorage but when a destination is a major cargo hub such as Miami then it can hold valuable cargo and passengers which makes starting a route more feasible. Whether that flight works out depends on how the market is stimulated by new direct service. From what I've read the overwhelming majority of new flights into Miami from European destinations saw massive increases in the local markets for travel to Miami. I don't see how that couldn't happen with Miami in regards to Asia, especially with Orlando nearby.
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Old 04-29-2012, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,384 posts, read 25,613,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofla951 View Post
I know that right now they stop at Anchorage but when a destination is a major cargo hub such as Miami then it can hold valuable cargo and passengers which makes starting a route more feasible. Whether that flight works out depends on how the market is stimulated by new direct service. From what I've read the overwhelming majority of new flights into Miami from European destinations saw massive increases in the local markets for travel to Miami. I don't see how that couldn't happen with Miami in regards to Asia, especially with Orlando nearby.
To a degree yes, but the yields went in the toilet from Miami/Orlando-Europe (especially northern Europe) after the boom. Orlando-Paris on Air France and Miami-Amsterdam on KLM ended up being casualties of it.

A Florida to Asia flight would be possible with a Japan Airlines 787 given the hubs at NRT and MIA. Ironically though, Orlando is the largest market to Japan in Florida, not Miami.
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Old 04-29-2012, 05:35 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
2,033 posts, read 1,970,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofla951 View Post
I know that right now they stop at Anchorage but when a destination is a major cargo hub such as Miami then it can hold valuable cargo and passengers which makes starting a route more feasible. Whether that flight works out depends on how the market is stimulated by new direct service. From what I've read the overwhelming majority of new flights into Miami from European destinations saw massive increases in the local markets for travel to Miami. I don't see how that couldn't happen with Miami in regards to Asia, especially with Orlando nearby.
Most Asian carriers do not operate combi aircraft anymore. The truth of the matter is Cargo is much more profitable than transporting passengers and no airline is going to segregate an aircraft for a small passenger load on a long haul flight.

With the smaller amount of Asians compared with other large metros it's in the Asains carrier's best interest to land in the western coastal cities were O&D is high and then transfer to a partnered US domestic flight to destinations east for remaining passengers (except Chicago and New York for obvious reasons). Miami is hindered by DFW if any Asain carrier's US network is to expand. American Airlines has hubs in both Dallas and Miami and if any new Asain airline is to serve these two cities it is soleley due to domestic feed from One World Alliance since both cities have horrible Asain O&D compared to other large markets. Dallas has the advantage over Miami since it's domestic feed is larger. Miami has a latin American feed but so does Sao Paulo which happens to be served by numerous Asain carriers already and there is no customs BS to deal with which would be the case if a international connection is made through Miami.

The sign of Asain cargo flights have little to do with potential passenger flights. Ask Dallas about that. China Airlines, Singapore, and others have served DFW for years with Cargo flights and there is not a glimmer of offering passenger service. Also I'd like to mention that there is not one single One World partnered Asain carrier flying passengers into DFW. The only Asain carrier with passenger service in DFW is Korean and that is due to a large Korean population in DFW and with that the flight isn't even a daily operation.

It will be quite a long time before you see Asian metal flying passengers to Miami.
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Old 04-29-2012, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
771 posts, read 1,388,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofla951 View Post
From downtown Orlando to the coast is the same distance as downtown Houston is from the coast. That's a fact. If Orlando was to expand from 100 to over 650 square miles as Houston has it would have city limits that touch the coast. The issue is the overwhelming majority of people in Houston live at least 40 miles from the nearest beach and some live more than 90 miles. Plus the 40 miles leading to Galveston are pretty rural/undeveloped. If you want to believe Houston is a coastal city in the way Miami, SF, LA, NY, and Boston area coastal cities go ahead, but I see Houston like Orlando not far from the coast but not a coastal city.
Thank you. This been my point the entire time. Houston is like Chicago that yes it's coastal, but not in the same sense as the cities that border the east and west coast. What I mean is that in a social and cultural context Houston is not coastal. The Houston homer just doesnt get it.

Maybe within Texas it's considered coastal. But in the same vein as cities like Miami, SF, LA, NYC, etc? Not at all on a national level.
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:20 PM
 
233 posts, read 528,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastphilly View Post
Most Asian carriers do not operate combi aircraft anymore. The truth of the matter is Cargo is much more profitable than transporting passengers and no airline is going to segregate an aircraft for a small passenger load on a long haul flight.

With the smaller amount of Asians compared with other large metros it's in the Asains carrier's best interest to land in the western coastal cities were O&D is high and then transfer to a partnered US domestic flight to destinations east for remaining passengers (except Chicago and New York for obvious reasons). Miami is hindered by DFW if any Asain carrier's US network is to expand. American Airlines has hubs in both Dallas and Miami and if any new Asain airline is to serve these two cities it is soleley due to domestic feed from One World Alliance since both cities have horrible Asain O&D compared to other large markets. Dallas has the advantage over Miami since it's domestic feed is larger. Miami has a latin American feed but so does Sao Paulo which happens to be served by numerous Asain carriers already and there is no customs BS to deal with which would be the case if a international connection is made through Miami.

The sign of Asain cargo flights have little to do with potential passenger flights. Ask Dallas about that. China Airlines, Singapore, and others have served DFW for years with Cargo flights and there is not a glimmer of offering passenger service. Also I'd like to mention that there is not one single One World partnered Asain carrier flying passengers into DFW. The only Asain carrier with passenger service in DFW is Korean and that is due to a large Korean population in DFW and with that the flight isn't even a daily operation.

It will be quite a long time before you see Asian metal flying passengers to Miami.
I don't know the demographics of South Florida's Asian population but in total DFW and Atlanta's aren't a great deal larger, plus Miami has important LatAm business ties and tourism. Miami's Latin American feed and location is much better then Sao Paulo, which is much far to south, although SP has a much larger O&D market than Miami. Florida's Asian tourism numbers have been growing rapidly even without a direct flight. It may not be Tokyo, it may be Hong Kong or Singapore. With Miami's Latin American hub status, Genting and Swire's major multi-billion dollar projects in the area, and a small yet growing Asian population Miami could get a flight by an Asian carrier. I'm in no way saying a daily flight, heck SFO's only South American flight is only 3w, but something similar to that could happen with Miami and I believe sooner rather than later.
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:28 PM
 
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There is a massive difference between Miami and Orlando in terms of foreign visitors from Europe. Orlando draws a large amount of people, especially from the UK, for their amusement parks. Look at the configurations of the planes sent down there, all high density, economy class heavy. Miami on the other hand almost always receives a carrier's top premium product.
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,384 posts, read 25,613,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofla951 View Post
I don't know the demographics of South Florida's Asian population but in total DFW and Atlanta's aren't a great deal larger, plus Miami has important LatAm business ties and tourism. Miami's Latin American feed and location is much better then Sao Paulo, which is much far to south, although SP has a much larger O&D market than Miami. Florida's Asian tourism numbers have been growing rapidly even without a direct flight. It may not be Tokyo, it may be Hong Kong or Singapore. With Miami's Latin American hub status, Genting and Swire's major multi-billion dollar projects in the area, and a small yet growing Asian population Miami could get a flight by an Asian carrier. I'm in no way saying a daily flight, heck SFO's only South American flight is only 3w, but something similar to that could happen with Miami and I believe sooner rather than later.
Depends on your definition of "a great deal larger". I would argue that Atlanta and especially Dallas have a much larger Asian population than Miami since Atlanta's is twice as large and Dallas is almost three times as large. Orlando's Asian community is is 3 times smaller than Dallas and twice as small as Atlanta:

Atlanta Asian population: 279,112

US2010

Dallas Asian population: 377,898

US2010

Miami/Fort Lauderdale Asian population: 141,994

US2010

Orlando Asian population: 97,931

I can tell you right now a flight from anywhere in Florida to Singapore is absolutely out of the question. The local market is small and its not high yielding. Miami-Hong Kong is decent sized local market (about 40 PDEW), but its not going to see a nonstop flight either. The stage length is way too long to support it.

My job gives me access to fare and O&D data so Ill throw down. The largest local markets from the South to East Asia are (in order): Atlanta-Seoul, Dallas-Seoul, Houston-Beijing, Houston-Shanghai, Atlanta-Tokyo, Dallas-Tokyo, Houston-Tokyo, Dallas-Shanghai, Atlanta-Shanghai, and Orlando-Tokyo. Those are the city pairs in the South that generate more than 50 PDEW. Miami-Tokyo is possible due to the hubs on both ends, but the local market wont be driving it.

Of course the largest O&D markets to Asia are actually to India (from Dallas, Atlanta, and Houston) and the Middle East (from Houston). Dallas-India is the largest local market to India and Dallas is the most India centric of all the South-Asia markets. Houston generates the most traffic to Southeast Asia and Atlanta generates the most to Korea and Japan. Houston (by a very wide margin) generates the most traffic to the Middle East. Floridas largest local market to Asia is Miami-Mumbai.

A last note, Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas all have very similarly sized Asian O&D. Miami and Orlando are smaller than those.

Last edited by Cowboys fan in Houston; 04-29-2012 at 07:56 PM..
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Underneath the Pecan Tree
15,982 posts, read 35,067,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChikidII View Post
Thank you. This been my point the entire time. Houston is like Chicago that yes it's coastal, but not in the same sense as the cities that border the east and west coast. What I mean is that in a social and cultural context Houston is not coastal. The Houston homer just doesnt get it.

Maybe within Texas it's considered coastal. But in the same vein as cities like Miami, SF, LA, NYC, etc? Not at all on a national level.
What???
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:14 PM
 
233 posts, read 528,508 times
Reputation: 119
With Singapore I was think more if Genting gets its casino and as part of the deal offers to pay for a portion of these flights,which the CEO has mentioned, but this would be a market manipulation and is highly speculative. In terms of Asian population in the South Florida versus the South I dont see the others as much above, yes in absolute numbers they are, but having just moved back to SFL from CA I've noticed there is a definitely a larger Asian/Indian population than there was a few years ago and there seems to be no reason why SFL couldn't catch up, a hundred thousand in terms of Atlanta, particularly with Asia's growing business ties with Lat Am and Miami.

Last edited by sofla951; 04-29-2012 at 08:30 PM..
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:33 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,606 posts, read 55,808,656 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Good link. Houston's actually a lot lower on the list than I expected. I understand that it's not much of a tourist destination, but I thought family and business visits would bring it up quite a bit more. I also noticed that these stats exclude our neighbors Canada and Mexico which would probably drastically change the stats for some of these places.
There's little to attract international visitors to Houston, aside from the Space Center. In Texas, the main tourist cities would be Austin and San Antonio.

I'm surprised at how low Philly was, even below Atlanta. I guess Philly is more for American visitors.
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