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I understand that Fastphilly (long-standing member since April 2012 who clearly has no bias towards the city of Philadelphia). That's not what I'm asking.
There is no practical difference between DC-Baltimore and SF-San Jose. The number of commuters traveling back and forth between each city is probably similar.
Someone living outside of DC and another living outside of Baltimore are equally likely to shop at Arundel Mills. And they are equally likely to fly out of Baltimore-Washington Airport. So in substance, the relationship you see between Baltimore and DC is not much different from that between SF and San Jose.
Commuter-wise, maybe, though I think the commuter belt between the parts of the Bay Area aren't quite the same because there are so many different areas that are key employment centers (DC has it as well, but mostly really close to DC itself) in-between downtown SF, downtown Oakland, and downtown San Jose. There's a lot of evenness in both residences and jobs which the DMV seems to have less of--as in it's more polarized between DC area and Baltimore area, but with areas in-between that go to work in both. Are there many major job centers at/near the boundaries of where the DC and Baltimore MSAs meet?
Also, there's a huge difference in self identification which has been mentioned several times--people in the Bay Area consider themselves as from the Bay Area since they share a lot of media and the like. The DMV is far more split. There's also physical boundary splits with DC, Maryland and Virginia. Though you probably knew this and we were just talking about commuting patterns.
Commuter-wise, maybe, though I think the commuter belt between the parts of the Bay Area aren't quite the same because there are so many different areas that are key employment centers (DC has it as well, but mostly really close to DC itself) in-between downtown SF, downtown Oakland, and downtown San Jose. There's a lot of evenness in both residences and jobs which the DMV seems to have less of--as in it's more polarized between DC area and Baltimore area, but with areas in-between that go to work in both. Are there many major job centers at/near the boundaries of where the DC and Baltimore MSAs meet?
Also, there's a huge difference in self identification which has been mentioned several times--people in the Bay Area consider themselves as from the Bay Area since they share a lot of media and the like. The DMV is far more split. There's also physical boundary splits with DC, Maryland and Virginia. Though you probably knew this and we were just talking about commuting patterns.
Thats true,
South San Francisco (East of highway 101) is a large employment center and is considered a leader in the Biotech industry. Genentech and numerous other Biotech companies are located in SSF on the peninsula, not to mention countless warehousing, food processing. United Airlines has it's sole Maintenence base located on the peninsula. Menlo Park and Redwood City (East of Highway 101) are also large employment centers.
Are there many major job centers at/near the boundaries of where the DC and Baltimore MSAs meet?
Sure. Ft. Meade is huge employer. According to Wikipedia, it has over 42,000 employees alone. There's also a lot of aerospace stuff with NASA, Northup Grumman and Boeing all having large offices along the 95/295 corridor. Then you have other large contractors like Booz Allen that are over that way.
Also, there's a huge difference in self identification which has been mentioned several times--people in the Bay Area consider themselves as from the Bay Area since they share a lot of media and the like. The DMV is far more split. There's also physical boundary splits with DC, Maryland and Virginia. Though you probably knew this and we were just talking about commuting patterns.
This has virtually no practical effect on the average person's life. Nobody says, "Man, the Census has designated San Jose as a separate MSA. Too far to go down there." Or "Man, Baltimore has its own newspaper. Too far to take a job up there." At the end of the day, Baltimore and DC and San Jose and San Fran are the same distance apart (Baltimore's actually about 8 miles closer). And there is overlap between their suburbs. And people commute between both cities. So the relationship is practically the same.
This has virtually no practical effect on the average person's life. Nobody says, "Man, the Census has designated San Jose as a separate MSA. Too far to go down there." Or "Man, Baltimore has its own newspaper. Too far to take a job up there." At the end of the day, Baltimore and DC and San Jose and San Fran are the same distance apart (Baltimore's actually about 8 miles closer). And there is overlap between their suburbs. And people commute between both cities. So the relationship is practically the same.
I think Oy was talking about common identity and culture more so than any practical effect. Nobody says "I am from the Washington/Baltimore metropolitan area". You are either from Washington or Baltimore (or Washington suburbs or Baltimore suburbs). But you hear people say "I am from the Bay Area". There is a common identity there rooted in the historical development of the region. That many not have any practical effect in the ways you suggested but it does have more subtle impact from the cultural perspective.
I think Oy was talking about common identity and culture more so than any practical effect. Nobody says "I am from the Washington/Baltimore metropolitan area". You are either from Washington or Baltimore (or Washington suburbs or Baltimore suburbs). But you hear people say "I am from the Bay Area". There is a common identity there rooted in the historical development of the region. That many not have any practical effect in the ways you suggested but it does have more subtle impact from the cultural perspective.
I understand that. I was responding to someone who said that the Bay Area functions as a unitary metropolitan area. That's why I asked what that meant in practical terms. Based on commuting patterns, and the distance between the cities, I don't see how they function any differently. Someone in DC may not drive to Philly to pick up a flatscreen they found on Craigslist, but they'll certainly drive to Baltimore.
I think Oy was talking about common identity and culture more so than any practical effect. Nobody says "I am from the Washington/Baltimore metropolitan area". You are either from Washington or Baltimore (or Washington suburbs or Baltimore suburbs). But you hear people say "I am from the Bay Area". There is a common identity there rooted in the historical development of the region. That many not have any practical effect in the ways you suggested but it does have more subtle impact from the cultural perspective.
Thats much of the point, people will generally say they are from the Bay Area, unless they are from San Francisco, they may say that. If you are talking to someone in California you may be more specific, but everyone knows what the "Bay Area" means.
Sure. Ft. Meade is huge employer. According to Wikipedia, it has over 42,000 employees alone. There's also a lot of aerospace stuff with NASA, Northup Grumman and Boeing all having large offices along the 95/295 corridor. Then you have other large contractors like Booz Allen that are over that way.
This has virtually no practical effect on the average person's life. Nobody says, "Man, the Census has designated San Jose as a separate MSA. Too far to go down there." Or "Man, Baltimore has its own newspaper. Too far to take a job up there." At the end of the day, Baltimore and DC and San Jose and San Fran are the same distance apart (Baltimore's actually about 8 miles closer). And there is overlap between their suburbs. And people commute between both cities. So the relationship is practically the same.
You agree that there's a large difference in identity, don't you? In which case, yea, people do actually think about it. Not the meta of it where someone in DC goes "oh, I'm not in Baltimore" but just that they simply don't bring to mind Baltimore when they are talking about the city or the area. In the Bay Area, there are distinctions to be made, but it's a lot more common to just think of the whole as the Bay Area. After all, if you are all watching the same games, reading/watching the same news, and aware of mostly the same events, you end up sort of building up an identity together.
Also, how big are those commuting centers in-between? Sand Hill Road is for venture capital and private equity what Wall Street is ostensibly for stocks, and that's very much on the border (on the SF side of things, yet often more associated with Silicon Valley which is more strongly associated with San Jose). Also on or next to the border (on both sides of the bay) besides Menlo Park are Palo Alto, Redwood City, Fremont (a city of over 200K people), and Milipitas with a lot of large employers and major corporation headquarters. I think it's unlikely that kind of employment concentration or population density is present at where Baltimore and the DC MSAs meet, but I'm actually not familiar with that stretch--it just looks a lot more like two blobs with a tendril connecting them from satellite view. I also remembering driving through Baltimore to get to DC and back and not seeing all that much in between but that isn't very compelling an argument.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-02-2012 at 01:18 PM..
You agree that there's a large difference in identity, don't you? In which case, yea, people do actually think about it. Not the meta of it where someone in DC goes "oh, I'm not in Baltimore" but just that they simply don't bring to mind Baltimore when they are talking about the city or the area. In the Bay Area, there are distinctions to be made, but it's a lot more common to just think of the whole as the Bay Area. After all, if you are all watching the same games, reading/watching the same news, and aware of mostly the same events, you end up sort of building up an identity together.
No, I agree with that. There's no catch-all for DC-Baltimore the way there is for San Francisco-San Jose-Oakland. That's just not that way people think about things down there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Also, how big are those commuting centers in-between?
Well, 42,000 employees is a lot of people. And that's just Ft. Meade. The town that would be most comparable to Fremont is Columbia, which is about equi-distant from DC and Baltimore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
I also remembering driving through Baltimore to get to DC and back and not seeing all that much in between but that isn't very compelling an argument.
If you think about it, where will you drive in the DC area and see much development? There are even stretches along the Capital Beltway where you won't see much other than trees. Maryland has Urban Growth boundaries, so all of its development is clumped together into pockets. You'll see trees pretty much the entire way up the Baltimore-Washington Parkway.
You agree that there's a large difference in identity, don't you? In which case, yea, people do actually think about it. Not the meta of it where someone in DC goes "oh, I'm not in Baltimore" but just that they simply don't bring to mind Baltimore when they are talking about the city or the area. In the Bay Area, there are distinctions to be made, but it's a lot more common to just think of the whole as the Bay Area. After all, if you are all watching the same games, reading/watching the same news, and aware of mostly the same events, you end up sort of building up an identity together.
Also, how big are those commuting centers in-between? Sand Hill Road is for venture capital and private equity what Wall Street is ostensibly for stocks, and that's very much on the border (on the SF side of things, yet often more associated with Silicon Valley which is more strongly associated with San Jose). Also on or next to the border (on both sides of the bay) besides Menlo Park are Palo Alto, Redwood City, Fremont (a city of over 200K people), and Milipitas with a lot of large employers and major corporation headquarters. I think it's unlikely that kind of employment concentration or population density is present at where Baltimore and the DC MSAs meet, but I'm actually not familiar with that stretch--it just looks a lot more like two blobs with a tendril connecting them from satellite view. I also remembering driving through Baltimore to get to DC and back and not seeing all that much in between but that isn't very compelling an argument.
On the identity elements here agree; though is a regional idnetity, not as much to me a mono centric identity so to speak. Though I do believe the Bay is very cohesive and connected on the whole.
On the DC/Balt. There are more jobs along the BW parkway or at least as many as 95. A few are high security and largely unknown (as well aa NASA Greenbelt etc.), also the BW parkway has the tree fill so you cant see what lies behind as much. Along 95 there is sort of gap around Laurel and Columbia but maybe a few miles and it still isnt like there is nothing in that space, just less cohesive
Lastly there is no real geographic border so the development doesnt have to be as dense; unlike the dramtic geography development border along the 2-3 miles from the bay to mountains along east and west bay. This geographic feature compresses the development more cohesively on the whole. With space to expand the developed cohesion will have slightly less continuity, supply/demad a bit.
I believe the Bay is more cohesive and more one place than DC and Balt; though not as uniform as say the broader Chicago area if that makes sense.
Also to me the Bay is the area around the Bay; the next set of areas extend and connect but not with the level of uniformity. I think the central bay area is about 5-5.5 million though may be off. That as clump is an economic juggernaunt in and of itself but as the core really align closer to the other set than the likes of Chicago or especially LA. (toronto I dont know well enought to compare)
Do you all remember when the Los Angeles metro was referred to as Los Angeles-Long Beach?
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