Will houston surpass chicago as the third largest city (credit, high school)

[southwest1230]

Originally Posted by case44

I'd have to side with you on this, Mapcat. More people are moving to Texas and not Illinois. With annexation and new lofts, Houston does have a chance by 2020. Chicago can't really go anywhere.

You guys have to qualify your growth. What kind of people would you hope to attract? I presume skilled folks. Tech folks are looking for something special, like Austin, funky and laid-back. I don't know the appeal of Houston for people can can live anywhere. I do think it can attract lots of working folk displaced from other areas including new orleans. Not sure if that kind of growth would do much for the city other than drag it down with services. Phoenix's economy is in the doldrums now, and has very poor jobs. What good would it be for Houston to grow if it didn't provide decent jobs? That would just make it a giant sh*thole, like Chicago or LA...in that case, it would be pointless to get bigger if it just creates more crap, traffic, pollution, crime, and a drain on the tax coffers.

[miamiman]

Originally Posted by Guerilla

Houston has no little towns around it either. Houston has a section of its ETJ (that it can annex) that has over 800,000 people in it (NW Harris County). And hopefully the water can keep up with Phoenix.

Another thing, if (and that is a big IF) Phoenix over takes Chicago and Houston in population (city limits of course), it will never become an important American city (it isn't now). Just look at its skyline. It looks like Houston's Greenspoint District. Phoenix is not a diverse area, either.

Oh and by the way, you said Phoenix has grown twice as fast as Houston has from 1990-2000. Let me give you the truth:

1990-2000:

Houston: 323,078
Phoenix: 337,642

I wouldn't call that twice as fast.

Yeah, if Houston and Phoenix's population were equal in 1990 those numbers would actually mean something. Houston's poulation in 1990 was 1.6 million while the population in Phoenix was only 983,000.

Houston saw a 16.6 percent increase in population. From 1.63 million in 1990 to 1.95 million in 2000.

Phoenix, however, saw an increase from 983,000 to 1.3 million. An increase of 34 percent.

Therefore, Phoenix was growing twice as fast as Houston.

Houston, of course, can acquire land surrounding it. However, Phoenix hasbeen actively acquiring land surrounding it, and will continue to do so.

I love how you feel to take a jab at Phoenix's skyline like that actaully means something. Sure our skyline is horrid for a city of our size. We have a nearby airport that restricts the height of our skyline.

The majority of people in Phoenix do not work downtown, or have a need to go there. Phoenix is the prime example of autocentric metro. At least Phoenix has zoning, unlike Houston where a school can be next to a strip club, which could be next to a church, behind a 70 story skyscraper.

Houston is full of tall buildings ONLY because of oil. If Houston was not the center of the American oil industry, Houston would likely be about the 15th or 20th most populous city, with a ridiculous looking skyline, as well.

Finally, you're right, for the most part, Phoenix is not diverse? Who cares? We have a fast growing Asian, Hispanic, and Black population. Certainly not on the level of Houston, but better than we have historically have been.

[Guerilla]

Originally Posted by miamiman

Yeah, if Houston and Phoenix's population were equal in 1990 those numbers would actually mean something. Houston's poulation in 1990 was 1.6 million while the population in Phoenix was only 983,000.

Houston saw a 16.6 percent increase in population. From 1.63 million in 1990 to 1.95 million in 2000.

Phoenix, however, saw an increase from 983,000 to 1.3 million. An increase of 34 percent.

Therefore, Phoenix was growing twice as fast as Houston.

Houston, of course, can acquire land surrounding it. However, Phoenix hasbeen actively acquiring land surrounding it, and will continue to do so.

I love how you feel to take a jab at Phoenix's skyline like that actaully means something. Sure our skyline is horrid for a city of our size. We have a nearby airport that restricts the height of our skyline.

The majority of people in Phoenix do not work downtown, or have a need to go there. Phoenix is the prime example of autocentric metro. At least Phoenix has zoning, unlike Houston where a school can be next to a strip club, which could be next to a church, behind a 70 story skyscraper.

Houston is full of tall buildings ONLY because of oil. If Houston was not the center of the American oil industry, Houston would likely be about the 15th or 20th most populous city, with a ridiculous looking skyline, as well.

Finally, you're right, for the most part, Phoenix is not diverse? Who cares? We have a fast growing Asian, Hispanic, and Black population. Certainly not on the level of Houston, but better than we have historically have been.

Okay, but now that Phoenix is not too far behind Houston anymore, its percentage population growth is going to be too big. I guess Phoenix is growing because of the acquiring land.

I can tell that you are over exaggerating Houston's zoning laws. There are ordinances that do not allow things like that to happen.

And yes, oil is what helped spark Houston into becoming a major American city. Every American city has something that sparked the city into growing. Phoenix's main reason was becoming a cheap suburban haven for people moving from California.

[mpope409]

Originally Posted by milquetoast

No one's looking for a bust, but Houston is the energy capital of the world. (Or so I keep hearing here) So, are we talking SOLAR, WIND, GEOTHERMAL, NUCLEAR, BIOFUEL, WHAT? Oil...

ALL OF THAT. Lol, no just kidding. You'd have to ask one of the boys.

[mpope409]

Originally Posted by miamiman

At least Phoenix has zoning, unlike Houston where a school can be next to a strip club, which could be next to a church, behind a 70 story skyscraper.

You could atleast be original. The city of Houston has skin like Teflon. Tell us something we haven't heard.

Houston is full of tall buildings ONLY because of oil. If Houston was not the center of the American oil industry, Houston would likely be about the 15th or 20th most populous city, with a ridiculous looking skyline, as well.

Don't be mad just because Phoenix's deal didn't work out like that. Yes, Houston's flight started on an oil boom, but our economy has become so diversified and no longer dependant on oil.

[miamiman]

Originally Posted by Guerilla

Okay, but now that Phoenix is not too far behind Houston anymore, its percentage population growth is going to be too big. I guess Phoenix is growing because of the acquiring land.

I can tell that you are over exaggerating Houston's zoning laws. There are ordinances that do not allow things like that to happen.

And yes, oil is what helped spark Houston into becoming a major American city. Every American city has something that sparked the city into growing. Phoenix's main reason was becoming a cheap suburban haven for people moving from California.

No. Phoenix is having massive internal growth, as well. If you've ever been to Phoenix you know that there are very large plots of farm land and deserts within city limits. Many of the existing farmers are giving into pressure to sell their land, while the desert areas are being sold to developers for even more housing. Combine that with the city frequently extending the city limits, and you have a city that is adding population quickly.

You're right that Phoenix will see a slowdown in population growth percentages. However, Phoenix's growth rate at it's current population is still still significantly higher than Houston's when they were at the same population level.

Phoenix is still the fastest growing major city in this country, and will be for years to come.

Phoenix has an extremely strong economy, which unlike Houston isn't tied up in a resource as a fragile as oil. Suburban Phoenix (Maricopa County) is home to more millionaires than Harris County, TX, despite the fact that you act as though the economy in Phoenix is based off of unsubstantial industry. American Express? Intel? US Air? Motorola? U-Haul? Just a few of the companies that either have major operations or headquarters here in the Valley of the Sun.

Because of the fact that the Phoenix metro is home to so many millionaires, we are in line to get upscale retail opportunities within the next two years, the likes of which Houston's metro will never see.

Phoenix is not drawing people just from California, but all of the country. Sure, we are notorious for our snowbirds (older people who winter down here). I wonder why they don't go to Houston? Maybe it's our beautiful surroundings, compared to Houston perpetual horrendous smog and flat swamp? Maybe it's the fact that during the summer Phoenix's weather doesn't resemble the Amazon? Maybe it's the fact that Phoenix is actually near other points of interest (Las Vegas, San Diego, LA, Flagstaff, and Mexico)? What's Houston near? Galveston? No thanks. I'd rather not swin in the water there, and risk having my future children have extra limbs, or a third eye.

There is something to be said for a metropolis where temperatures routinely get about 110 degrees in the summer, where all the homes and shopping centers look alike, that lives under the threat of running out of water in the next 30 years, but still is the home to the fastest growing CITY in the entire country.

All it would take is a signifcant oil crisis, and Houston would fall to shambles.

[miamiman]

Originally Posted by mpope409

You could atleast be original. The city of Houston has skin like Teflon. Tell us something we haven't heard.

You can look at my post to Guerilla at what Phoenix has over Houston. I see no need for repetition.

Originally Posted by mpope409

Don't be mad just because Phoenix's deal didn't work out like that. Yes, Houston's flight started on an oil boom, but our economy has become so diversified and no longer dependant on oil.

Believe me, I'm not mad. Phoenix doesn't lie next to a region covered in oilfields. Oil is the ONLY reason Houston's population is as large as it is. Let's look at Houston's tourism. Not too many people wake up, and say "HEY, I wanna take a trip to Houston!" Not only are people moving to Phoenix in droves, but they are visiting Phoenix in droves.

Look at tourism in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Phoenix. Then look at tourism in Houston. Sad, isn't it?

Phoenix has had a highly diversified economy for more than 50 years. Still, if the oil industry were to collapse, Houston would collapse, too.

Modern day Detroit anyone??

[Guerilla]

^^Hmm...lets see the truth about visitors/tourists:

America's 30 Most Visited Cities | ForbesTraveler.com

Originally Posted by miamiman

No. Phoenix is having massive internal growth, as well. If you've ever been to Phoenix you know that there are very large plots of farm land and deserts within city limits. Many of the existing farmers are giving into pressure to sell their land, while the desert areas are being sold to developers for even more housing. Combine that with the city frequently extending the city limits, and you have a city that is adding population quickly.

Same with Houston. Almost all of northeast Houston is empty. That land is getting filled in with new developments. Same for South Houston.

You're right that Phoenix will see a slowdown in population growth percentages. However, Phoenix's growth rate at it's current population is still still significantly higher than Houston's when they were at the same population level.

Okay, Phoenix grew by 1,000 more people than Houston from 2000-2006. Not much of a difference at all.

Phoenix is still the fastest growing major city in this country, and will be for years to come.

Well, since you like to use percentages, that belongs to Las Vegas.

Phoenix has an extremely strong economy, which unlike Houston isn't tied up in a resource as a fragile as oil. Suburban Phoenix (Maricopa County) is home to more millionaires than Harris County, TX, despite the fact that you act as though the economy in Phoenix is based off of unsubstantial industry. American Express? Intel? US Air? Motorola? U-Haul? Just a few of the companies that either have major operations or headquarters here in the Valley of the Sun.

LOL. Phoenix has a stable economy, but isn't strong. Without Phoenix, the U.S. wouldn't be in big trouble. Why else do you think everyone was freaking out when Hurricane Rita looked like it was going to hit Houston? This part of the nation would be at a standstill. It was all over CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News.

There must be a reason why Houston has the second most Fortune 500 companies out of all U.S. cities. Metro Phoenix only has three.

Houston companies: List of companies in Houston - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exxon Mobil is HQ'ed in Irving, Texas, but the majority of their employees are in Houston.

Maricopa County includes the majority (like 3.8 million out of the four that live in the Phoenix Metro). Of course a lot of millionaires would live there. Couple that with the high home prices in Phoenix compared to Houston, too:

No. 4
Maricopa County, Arizona
Number of millionaire households: 113,414
Percentage of state's millionaire households: 62%
Percentage of nation's millionaire households: 1%

No. 6
Harris County, Texas
Number of millionaire households: 99,504
Percentage of state's millionaire households: 16%
Percentage of nation's millionaire households: 1%

Because of the fact that the Phoenix metro is home to so many millionaires, we are in line to get upscale retail opportunities within the next two years, the likes of which Houston's metro will never see.

Have you heard of The Galleria in Houston? Houston already has the stores Phoenix will be getting AND will be getting even more stores. Barney's will be building a huge flagship store in a new development called High Street, which is right next to the Galleria. BLVD Place just across the street from the Galleria will include a Ritz-Carlton at 55-stories. I really think you have no clue what you are talking about. If you did, you would know Houston has a lot more upscale retail the Phoenix can ever dream of. Uptown Houston is just loaded with upscale retail.

Phoenix is not drawing people just from California, but all of the country. Sure, we are notorious for our snowbirds (older people who winter down here). I wonder why they don't go to Houston? Maybe it's our beautiful surroundings, compared to Houston perpetual horrendous smog and flat swamp? Maybe it's the fact that during the summer Phoenix's weather doesn't resemble the Amazon? Maybe it's the fact that Phoenix is actually near other points of interest (Las Vegas, San Diego, LA, Flagstaff, and Mexico)? What's Houston near? Galveston? No thanks. I'd rather not swin in the water there, and risk having my future children have extra limbs, or a third eye.

You seem to be getting mad, LOL. Houston gets those people, too. You should look it up. Galveston and the Clear Lake area are home to many of them. There are about twelve new condo towers (about four under construction now) that are going up (around Clear Lake) pacifically to market to those people. A new 24-story Westin Hotel and Residences is going up down there, too. Galveston is just a beast. So many new condo developments and retail there.

Houston is also built at the Southern edge of the Big Thickett forest. A very nice area. I do agree that part of Houston is built on swampland, but allow the eastern suburbs are. From the Woodlands on up, you have nice rolling hills that take you on up to Huntsville, Texas. The fact that Houston is pretty isolated and still growing the way it is is quite amazing.

There is something to be said for a metropolis where temperatures routinely get about 110 degrees in the summer, where all the homes and shopping centers look alike, that lives under the threat of running out of water in the next 30 years, but still is the home to the fastest growing CITY in the entire country.

It isn't the fastest growing city (since you like to use percentages). That goes to Las Vegas. And are you proud that all of the homes and shopping centers look alike. You must love that Phoenix is basically a large suburb.

All it would take is a signifcant oil crisis, and Houston would fall to shambles.

True in the 80's, but not now since only 40% of Houston's economy relies on energy (oil, etc.).

Look here: Greater Houston Partnership | Primary advocate of Houston's business community

[mpope409]

Originally Posted by miamiman

You can look at my post to Guerilla at what Phoenix has over Houston. I see no need for repetition.

I fail to see how Phoenix has the upper hand over Houston in any way.

Believe me, I'm not mad. Phoenix doesn't lie next to a region covered in oilfields. Oil is the ONLY reason Houston's population is as large as it is. Let's look at Houston's tourism. Not too many people wake up, and say "HEY, I wanna take a trip to Houston!"

And you know this because...

Not only are people moving to Phoenix in droves, but they are visiting Phoenix in droves.

Never been, never will. Thousands of people will cosign that. What the hell is in Phoenix?

Look at tourism in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Phoenix. Then look at tourism in Houston. Sad, isn't it?

Houston is actually one of the most visited cities in the country. Get it straight.

Phoenix has had a highly diversified economy for more than 50 years. Still, if the oil industry were to collapse, Houston would collapse, too.

Where are you getting this from? Where's your statistics? Your sources? Do you even know what you're talking about? Seriously, you're fighting a battle you just can't win, dude.

In fact, can we please get back to the original discussion at hand? I just stooped down a thousand levels to dignify this man's arguments.

[miamiman]

Originally Posted by Guerilla

^^Hmm...lets see the truth about visitors/tourists:

America's 30 Most Visited Cities | ForbesTraveler.com

Hmm, the majority of those vistors come for conventions?? That doesn't say anything about Houston except that it's a good place for conventions. Houston is roughly halfway between the East and West coasts. Of course it would be a good meeting spot. So it's cheap to fly there, plus it's a cheap city to stay in.

According to this Forbes study, if you happened to be an employee of your company and it was expected or required of you to attend a convention, you'd be considered a tourist. Sounds like a poor marketing ploy to me.

Please. Phoenix is where people come to play, not to work. That's the definition of a true tourist town. Orlando? Chicago? New York? LA? People go there because they want to, not because they have to.

Originally Posted by Guerilla

Same with Houston. Almost all of northeast Houston is empty. That land is getting filled in with new developments. Same for South Houston.]

That doesn't negate the fact that people are moving to Phoenix at a much faster rate than they are moving to Houston. Phoenix's population density is a lot less than Houston's. That means we have a lot more room to fill in. Let's also not forget the fact that a significant amount of population growth came from evacuees of Katrina.

Originally Posted by Guerilla

Okay, Phoenix grew by 1,000 more people than Houston from 2000-2006. Not much of a difference at all.

Maybe not to you. In 1990, Phoenix has 700,000 people fewer than Houston, in 2006, 600,000. That's kind of significant. Population growth rates kind of do mean something.

Originally Posted by Guerilla

Well, since you like to use percentages, that belongs to Las Vegas.

I have actually said Phoenix is the fastest growing major city. Las Vegas is a tourist town with not even 600,000 people. Not even in the top 20. Las Vegas is no threat to Phoenix or Houston, so the city is not even relevant.

Originally Posted by Guerilla

LOL. Phoenix has a stable economy, but isn't strong. Without Phoenix, the U.S. wouldn't be in big trouble. Why else do you think everyone was freaking out when Hurricane Rita looked like it was going to hit Houston? This part of the nation would be at a standstill. It was all over CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News.
There must be a reason why Houston has the second most Fortune 500 companies out of all U.S. cities. Metro Phoenix only has three.

You're right. The United States could live without Phoenix. The United States could live without Houston, too. Everyone wasn't freaking out with Hurricane Rita hit. I was living in New Jersey, and the main thing I heard about Rita was its threats to offshore oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico. The secondary effects were concerned on Houston, and the poor infrastructure in place to get everyone out. Please sitting on I-45 for hours and hours in 100 degree heat with a 117 degree heat index is all I heard about Houston. Good thing Phoenix doesn't have natural disasters like that.

Much of oil isn't from the city of Houston, but surrouding locales. I am sure those oil offices have satellites in case anything ever happened to Houston. Businesses aren't dumb enough to have one office. It's not like if something happened to their headquarters oil as we know it would disappear. If something happened to our supply, then it would be a different story.

Phoenix is a major city. More than 1 out of every 100 Americans live in the Phoenix metro area. That's kind of significant.

Originally Posted by Guerilla

Maricopa County includes the majority (like 3.8 million out of the four that live in the Phoenix Metro). Of course a lot of millionaires would live there. Couple that with the high home prices in Phoenix compared to Houston, too:

No. 4
Maricopa County, Arizona
Number of millionaire households: 113,414
Percentage of state's millionaire households: 62%
Percentage of nation's millionaire households: 1%

No. 6
Harris County, Texas
Number of millionaire households: 99,504
Percentage of state's millionaire households: 16%
Percentage of nation's millionaire households: 1%

What's your point? Why would you say "of course a lot of millionaires would live there?"

Chicago's metro includes more than one county, just like Houston. But they manage to beat out Maricopa County in terms of number of millionaires. Again, Harris County, just doesn't have as many millionaires as Maricopa, despite the fact that it has more people. Houston's metro doesn't have as high of a percentage of millionaires as Phoenix's. Find me a place where it says differently.

Originally Posted by Guerilla

Have you heard of The Galleria in Houston? Houston already has the stores Phoenix will be getting AND will be getting even more stores. Barney's will be building a huge flagship store in a new development called High Street, which is right next to the Galleria. BLVD Place just across the street from the Galleria will include a Ritz-Carlton at 55-stories. I really think you have no clue what you are talking about. If you did, you would know Houston has a lot more upscale retail the Phoenix can ever dream of. Uptown Houston is just loaded with upscale retail.

Really?! Houston doesn't even have a Bloomingdales. Please. I didn't know Houston had a Hermes? How about Socrati (South African luxury shoemaker)? Phoenix has the FIRST and ONLY one in the United States. Roberto Botticelli (Milan-based luxury shoe maker)? Again, the FIRST and the ONLY one in the United States. Too bad Phoenix's Barney's is going to be the fifth largest in the nation. Sorry Houston.

Originally Posted by Guerilla

You seem to be getting mad, LOL. Houston gets those people, too. You should look it up. Galveston and the Clear Lake area are home to many of them. There are about twelve new condo towers (about four under construction now) that are going up (around Clear Lake) pacifically to market to those people. A new 24-story Westin Hotel and Residences is going up down there, too. Galveston is just a beast. So many new condo developments and retail there.

There is a lot more to do in and around Phoenix than there is to do around Houston. Without Houston, you don't have anything. As I said before, Galveston is a polluted wasteland. You have NASA, and what else? Oil refineries? Oh, yippie! Where do I sign up for the tour?!?

http://www.lizasreef.com/HOPE%20FOR%...ollution_1.jpg

Originally Posted by Guerilla

Houston is also built at the Southern edge of the Big Thickett forest. A very nice area. I do agree that part of Houston is built on swampland, but allow the eastern suburbs are. From the Woodlands on up, you have nice rolling hills that take you on up to Huntsville, Texas. The fact that Houston is pretty isolated and still growing the way it is is quite amazing.

More like Big Thickett swamp. Mosquitoes and other swamp creatures buzzing and scurrying left and right is not my idea of a nice area. Couple that with 95 degree summers with 80 degree dewpoints, and you get as close to hell on earth as possible. I am sure there are nicer areas of Houston, but you can't escape the deathly heat/humidity combination and the risk of severe flooding and hurricanes.

Originally Posted by Guerilla

It isn't the fastest growing city (since you like to use percentages). That goes to Las Vegas. And are you proud that all of the homes and shopping centers look alike. You must love that Phoenix is basically a large suburb.

Are you really saying this coming from Houston? Houston is just as bad as Phoenix. You have tall buildings. What else? Houston routinely is noted as having one the highest percentages of obese people to inhabit this country's soil. Guess they aren't strolling around Houston's walkable, character-filled, pedestrian-oriented neighborhoods.

Originally Posted by Guerilla

True in the 80's, but not now since only 40% of Houston's economy relies on energy (oil, etc.).

Look here: Greater Houston Partnership | Primary advocate of Houston's business community

Only 40%. That's still a recipe for disaster, should something happen to the oil industry.

My point in all this is that Houston is not the only major city out there. Too many times other important metro areas, such as Dallas, San Antonio, and Phoenix aren't given the respect that they deserve. The cities are all growing rapidly. Americans need to move away from the line of thinking that the most populous cities will be those with the most impressive skylines, the greatest amount of density, or the greatest number of art museums. Phoenix is quickly moving up the ranks as a town that only had 106,000 people in 1950 (comprable to Allentown, PA) to a major city with 1.6 million people.

Phoenix has seemingly risen out of nowhere to become a major U.S. city, and I understand it's never going to be fully respected on the level of Chicago, NY, and LA. Whether or not you choose to accept it, Phoenix is the fastest growing MAJOR city in the country, and will continue to be so.

I hear people saying that Phoenix will face issues such as a water crisis, or a time when the temperature won't fall below 100 degrees at night. I think everyone needs to look at the concerns of their own cities. Who would've thought that Atlanta would be nearly out of water? Who would've thought that San Diego eastern neighborhoods could burn to the ground so easily?