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View Poll Results: Best Mass Transit Expansion Plans
Dallas 17 23.29%
Denver 12 16.44%
Houston 2 2.74%
Los Angeles 28 38.36%
Seattle 7 9.59%
Minneapolis-St. Paul 5 6.85%
Other.. (please state) 2 2.74%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-11-2013, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,084 posts, read 15,758,726 times
Reputation: 4049

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Here is some interesting information from APTA about how much these cities have increased from 2011-2012 (I added Salt Lake City because it is definitely a peer with these cities in terms of transit ridership):

LRT / Trolley (for Seattle):
  • Los Angeles - Average Daily Ridership: 203,400 - Percentage Increase from 2011: +18.5%
  • Seattle - Average Daily Ridership: 29,800 + 2,500 + 73,600 - Percentage Increase from 2011: +10.7% / +5% / -7.67%
  • Dallas - Average Daily Ridership: 103,100 - Percentage Increase from 2011: +20.8%
  • Denver - Average Daily Ridership: 65,300 - Percentage Increase from 2011: -0.27%
  • Salt Lake City - Average Daily Ridership: 60,600 - Percentage Increase from 2011: +14.7%
  • Houston - Average Daily Ridership: 37,000 - Percentage Increase from 2011: +5.76%
  • Minneapolis - Average Daily Ridership: 31,500 - Percentage Increase from 2011: +0.94%
HRT:
  • Los Angeles - Average Daily Ridership: 158,000 - Percentage Increase from 2011: +3.7%
Commuter Rail:

  • Los Angeles - Average Daily Ridership: 42,300 - Percentage Increase from 2011: +5.24%
  • Seattle - Average Daily Ridership: 7,800 - Percentage Increase from 2011: +10.53%
  • Dallas - Average Daily Ridership: 7,300 - Percentage Increase from 2011: -7.73%
  • Salt Lake City - Average Daily Ridership: 10,900 - Percentage Increase from 2011: +14.74%
http://www.apta.com/resources/statis...rship-APTA.pdf
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:30 PM
 
Location: The City
22,379 posts, read 38,665,395 times
Reputation: 7974
LA is really adding rail usage quickly

Also am curious on these LRT lines as it appears SEPTA is evaluating LR as opposed to HR for the BLVD extension which on paper would add ~100K to the HR system, not sure if LR can meet the demand and would also require a two seat ride to CC much like the KOP extension of the NHSL which links with the MFL subway line in west Philly

I am also curious to see how the Seattle system comes together, Philly already has an underground (subway like) trunk for LR lines into Center City and there is some momementum (not enough yet) to increase these lines

Sorry just more an observer as it looks like HR investment is harder and harder to come by in these parts so these systems may be precursors for expansion here
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:30 PM
 
1,581 posts, read 2,809,115 times
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I love the fact that there building more street car lines in downtown Seattle . The first hill street car line will open early next year and the connector line is partialy funded through a federal grant. I love the subway line to get into Seattle but once in downtown the streetcar is great . When the University subway line opens its supposed to add 50,000 + ridership to link.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,084 posts, read 15,758,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
LA is really adding rail usage quickly

Also am curious on these LRT lines as it appears SEPTA is evaluating LR as opposed to HR for the BLVD extension which on paper would add ~100K to the HR system, not sure if LR can meet the demand and would also require a two seat ride to CC much like the KOP extension of the NHSL which links with the MFL subway line in west Philly

I am also curious to see how the Seattle system comes together, Philly already has an underground (subway like) trunk for LR lines into Center City and there is some momementum (not enough yet) to increase these lines

Sorry just more an observer as it looks like HR investment is harder and harder to come by in these parts so these systems may be precursors for expansion here
Well the Blue Line (DTLA to Long Beach) has a ridership of around 90K on the weekdays, and from what I have heard (and seen when that thing pulls into 7th Street / Metro Center - it's Boston Green Line-esque) it is pretty overcrowded. So I suppose LRT is serviceable in place of HRT but can have some ridership limitations - thank god the Purple Line stub is already HRT so nobody tried to do the Westside Extension in LA as LRT.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:37 PM
 
Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
10,720 posts, read 23,621,080 times
Reputation: 14551
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
Well the Blue Line (DTLA to Long Beach) has a ridership of around 90K on the weekdays, and from what I have heard (and seen when that thing pulls into 7th Street / Metro Center - it's Boston Green Line-esque) it is pretty overcrowded. So I suppose LRT is serviceable in place of HRT but can have some ridership limitations - thank god the Purple Line stub is already HRT so nobody tried to do the Westside Extension in LA as LRT.
Nothing says being canned like a sardine than riding a Green line train in Boston to Kenmore Square during a Red Sox game. I imagine that is what the average Tokyo subway ride is like during rush hour. The problem with some light rail systems is they stop far too frequently. This is true on Boston's green line (does BU really need 3 stops?) and especially Portland where the trains stop nearly every block in downtown making somewhat distant rides absolutely long and tedious.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:47 PM
 
443 posts, read 872,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orzo View Post
It's LA easily.

However, I think Seattle deserves some credit as, aside from LA, it is the only City listed that is building it's system almost entirely underground or grade-separated. Seattle's "light rail" will essentially function like a subway system, with stations located in neighborhood centers. If the Ballard line, currently being studied, gets approved, Seattle will be the easy #2 on this list.

Denver's system is too park-n-ride based and doesn't feel like a classic Metro system in the way that Seattle's will.

Below are examples of corners where some upcoming Seattle subway stations will be. The point here is that in Seattle they are focusing on putting stations underground in the middle of urban centers. There is still a lot of work to do to approve more coverage across the City, but it is a model that will ultimately lead to greater sustainability, higher ridership, and more urban development. In Dallas and Denver too many of the stations are geared solely towards commuters, with too much parking.

Future Seattle Stations (exact locations):

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=broad...00.22,,0,13.11

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=45th+...=12,96.41,,0,1

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=65th+...279.26,,0,7.61

One the one in Downtown Bellevue:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=wild+...,99.01,,0,6.51
Yeah, but while no one would mistake Seattle for NYC or Chicago, it is more urban than Denver or Dallas, so it makes sense for them to take a more "urban center" subway approach with underground/grade-separation. Not to mention, topography issues dictate that as well. For Denver or Dallas, they can build much more cheaply doing it the other way, and so they can build more lines to more places.

It's a trade off, but I think it depends on the urban form and topography of the city more than anything else.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
456 posts, read 769,987 times
Reputation: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by orzo View Post
It's LA easily.

However, I think Seattle deserves some credit as, aside from LA, it is the only City listed that is building it's system almost entirely underground or grade-separated. Seattle's "light rail" will essentially function like a subway system, with stations located in neighborhood centers. If the Ballard line, currently being studied, gets approved, Seattle will be the easy #2 on this list.

Denver's system is too park-n-ride based and doesn't feel like a classic Metro system in the way that Seattle's will.

Below are examples of corners where some upcoming Seattle subway stations will be. The point here is that in Seattle they are focusing on putting stations underground in the middle of urban centers. There is still a lot of work to do to approve more coverage across the City, but it is a model that will ultimately lead to greater sustainability, higher ridership, and more urban development. In Dallas and Denver too many of the stations are geared solely towards commuters, with too much parking.

Future Seattle Stations (exact locations):

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=broad...00.22,,0,13.11

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=45th+...=12,96.41,,0,1

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=65th+...279.26,,0,7.61

One the one in Downtown Bellevue:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=wild+...,99.01,,0,6.51

The tradeoff for Seattle however, is incredibly expensive per mile build costs and a relatively slower system build out compared to other cities.

Ben
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,084 posts, read 15,758,726 times
Reputation: 4049
Quote:
Originally Posted by caphillsea77 View Post
Nothing says being canned like a sardine than riding a Green line train in Boston to Kenmore Square during a Red Sox game. I imagine that is what the average Tokyo subway ride is like during rush hour. The problem with some light rail systems is they stop far too frequently. This is true on Boston's green line (does BU really need 3 stops?) and especially Portland where the trains stop nearly every block in downtown making somewhat distant rides absolutely long and tedious.
There may be no worse transit experience than standing in a 95 degree Park Street station on a Friday afternoon - dressed in business-casual - watching three packed-to-the-gills Green Line trains go by before you can finally cram yourself into a corner of the car - meanwhile, the "Sawx" fans are grinning like idiots the entire time because it's their first time on MBTA in a year, while you have been putting up with this exact scenario five times that week alone.

I also agree about station placement - I think about a mile between stations is appropriate.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,084 posts, read 15,758,726 times
Reputation: 4049
What is the cost for a ride on these systems?

For the Los Angeles Metro it is $1.50 per ride, but you have to pay for each transfer. A daily pass is $5: LA Metro Home | Fares
When the Regional Connector comes online (basically turning the Blue, Expo and Gold Lines into two lines, one from Santa Monica to East LA and the other from Long Beach to Pasadena and beyond) there is a chance the LRT will turn into a distance-based fare system, considering it would be possible to travel 44 miles from Azusa to LB for $1.50 but from DTLA to LAX would be $3.00.

DART has a unique system - instead of a single ride for $2.50, you get two hours of unlimited rides, day passes are $5: DART.org - Fare and Pass Information

Seattle Link has a distance-based fare system for the Central Link ranging from $2.00 - $2.75, plus day passes for what I think are $5.50: Link light rail fares - SoundTransit

Denver RTD seems to have a distance-based system as well, with tickets being $2.25 for 1-2 zones, $4 for 3 zones and $5 for all zones - for a day pass it is $6.75 for 1-2 zones, $11.50 for 3 zones and $14 for all zones: RTD

Minneapolis Metro Transit probably has the best rates: $1.75 a ride non-rush-hour, or $2.25 during rush-hour - this includes 2.5 hours for transfers, so it is sort of like DART's 2-hour unlimited rides, but 1/2 an hour longer. The downtown area has a .50 cent unlimited ride zone (sort of like Portland's, I gather). http://www.metrotransit.org/fares-passes

I can't find the info on Houston's site. That's terrible. This is the closest page I could find: http://www.ridemetro.org/Services/Ra...FareZones.aspx

There is more information about how you will get busted for not paying your fare than there is about the actual fare. Every other system I found the fare costs almost immediately. Houston's web site looks like it is stuck in the 90s (along with their transit policy - zing!).

Finally found Houston's: http://www.ridemetro.org/FareInfo/Default.aspx
$1.25 a ride. Seems like it is like LA's and you have to pay for a transfer (except there is only one rail line in Houston, so I guess only transfers to buses).

Last edited by munchitup; 03-11-2013 at 05:30 PM..
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:34 PM
 
1,066 posts, read 2,061,533 times
Reputation: 841
How are any of the cities besides LA and Denver getting votes? These 2 cities clearly have the biggest and best expansions going forward. City bias is rampant in this thread because the other cities' expansions (while nice) are not on the same level!
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