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View Poll Results: Which group of cities offers the better urban living experience?
Old School (Cleveland, Cincinnati, St Louis, Pittsburgh) 39 44.83%
New School (Denver, Portland, Minneapolis, Seattle) 48 55.17%
Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-16-2013, 04:07 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
1,221 posts, read 2,169,622 times
Reputation: 763

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UGGGH that makes me so angry. One of the last truly great assets these old cities have is their architecture and they're doing themselves no favors by tearing it down. It's a constant battle in St. Louis to keep buildings standing.
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Old 07-16-2013, 04:15 PM
 
1,901 posts, read 2,173,962 times
Reputation: 1845
Quote:
Originally Posted by natininja View Post
I won't tell you they did, because I know it would upset you as much as it would me. But I won't tell you they didn't, because it would be a lie.


I remember exploring that neighborhood like 20 years ago and thinking to myself, this could be one of America's most iconic stretches of historic urban architecture/buildings, similar to that San Fran inclined stretch of Victorians.....

RIP.

Luckily Cincinnati still has embarrassment of gorgeousness.
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Old 07-16-2013, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Tampa - St. Louis
1,029 posts, read 1,536,198 times
Reputation: 1387
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I don't use American standards for "urbanity". I'd agree the second tier cities are interesting, but not particularly urban. I liked what I saw of Portland and Seattle, perhaps the older one would have been better for urban living, but a lot of them, especially St. Louis and Cleveland have a huge amount of decay.
Define urban? What standard do you use?

St. Louis and Cleveland have way more stable "urban" neighborhoods than decaying ones by the way.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:52 AM
 
1,973 posts, read 2,577,311 times
Reputation: 1597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Min-Chi-Cbus View Post
, please don't boast about the Cleveland RTA bus system, which pales in comparison to the Metro Transit system in the Twin Cities.
Based on what? Although RTA suffered heavy cuts due to a bad economy and a stingy, conservative state, the bus system is still among the best among medium-sized cities. In addition to the routine stuff, it runs the much-praised Health Line BRT, roughly 12-14 24-hour lines, a system of 6 free downtown (very cute) rubber-tired trolleys, and a number of park 'n ride freeway flyers. What makes Minny's bus system so great? A few freeway bus BRT stops? All I see is a Johnny-come-lately mass transit system with rail being built on the cheap -- ie, downtown street trolleys intersecting traffic and missing all the (acknowledged) great walkable neighborhoods in the City. RTA's rail system, though not perfect, much better supports walkable, dense neighborhoods in the city... Please support your argument with facts, not feeling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Min-Chi-Cbus View Post
The reason transit planners chose the 3A alignment for the SW Cooridor (instead of 3C, through Uptown) was because of cost. Unlike Cleveland, the Twin Cities is building its rail WELL after the infrastructure is in place and at at least 10X the cost (adjusted for inflation). To align through Uptown would have likely required a subway, which although ideal, could have easily doubled the cost of the line and knocked it out of the running.
That's not entirely true. The core of RTA's rail system is nearly 100 years old, and the private money to build the Blue and Green (Shaker Lines, including the massive Terminal Tower complex in the heart of town) in today's costs would be tremendous--considerably more than the Twin City's built and planned 3-line LRT system. Cleveland's heavy rail Red Line was built in 1955, well after Cleveland's core infrastructure was established... Minneapolis missed a major bet choosing 3A over 3B where, probably, only the Nicollet Mall section would have had to have been in subway... the L-shaped bend would have put trains in the Midtown Greenway right of way, which is sunken, grade-separated and ready-made for speedy light rail trains. The cross-town Midtown Greenway could have funneled all trains right through the center of town, served all points of the amazing Nicollet Mall and allowed many residents of the walkable neighborhoods to live car-free -- (see Cleveland's Ohio City, University Circle and Shaker Square/Larchmere, among others...)... as they say, no pain, no gain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Min-Chi-Cbus View Post
That being said, I LOVE LOVE LOVE how Shaker Heights planned for density and transit, and I also love the Cleveland neighborhoods you are referring to. The difference between them, however, and the Minneapolis 'hoods like Loring Park, North Loop, Whittier, Uptown, etc. is that those areas have seen so much more development than Cleveland has since 1960. Loring Park, for example, is essentially a mid-rise and high-rise only neighborhood -- with a handful of single-family homes -- much of it built up since 1960. I haven't seen anything in Cleveland that looks quite like it, including Lakewood (the densest suburb/city outside of Chicago in the Midwest). I think Cleveland is finally heading in the right direction and if/when it starts redeveloping at the pace of Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis, etc. it will get the same recognition.
Revitalization of a city can be as much by adaptive reuse as it is by new construction. Ohio City, for example, was a dumpy, rundown, crime-ridden area with a dingy commercial strip that only had the West Side market going for it. And even though there has been some spot new residential construction, it is mainly infill and primarily individual homes, with a few row-town house types here and there... But the revitalization of the side-street Victorians, the rehab of often vacant, deteriorating commercial properties into lofts, shops and restaurants, as well as an all-new (10 years ago) Dave's Supermarket, along with OC's transit friendliness, has made it a model for old urban neighborhoods nationally...

Cleveland's got to crawl before it can walk (or even run) again. To even be where it's at given the destruction of heavy industry and loss of corporations is amazing... The Twin Cities have never been blue collar the way Cleveland is. And yet, despite the recession of 2008 which was another major kick in the teeth, the City is on a roll development-wise, although there are miles and miles to go esp regarding jobs, schools, infrastructure and the like... but it's getting there.

... and as you know, having lived here, Cleveland is anything but dull, esp regards to its culture and nightlife.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
1,361 posts, read 2,702,611 times
Reputation: 778
From the NEW YORK TIMES ... an excellent write up on our burgeoning arts scene in CLE!

Culture Blooms in Cleveland - NYTimes.com
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:57 AM
 
Location: DC
529 posts, read 994,512 times
Reputation: 293
i dont know where you get the idea that Minneapolis is "new city".
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Old 08-16-2013, 06:28 PM
 
574 posts, read 844,681 times
Reputation: 466
City Population
These are populations from the 1890 census.
Cincinnati, O. 296,908
Cleveland, O. 261,353
Pittsburgh, Pa. 237,617
Milwaukee, Wis. 204,468
Minneapolis, Minn. 164,738
St. Paul, Minn. 133,156
Denver, Col. 106,713
Atlanta, Ga. 65,533
Memphis, Tenn. 64,495
Lincoln, Neb. 55,154
Los Angeles, Cal. 50,395
Portland, Ore. 46,385
Seattle, Wash. 43,837
Dallas, Tex. 38,067
San Antonio, Tex. 37,673
Tacoma, Wash. 36,006
Duluth, Minn. 33,115
Yonkers, N. Y. 32,033

This had all this cities old school verse new school in the threads original post. Combine minneapolis and st.paul and your talking 300,000 people in 1890. So I'm not sure Minneapolis or St. Paul belong in the new school group. I threw some other random cities in there for fun.
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Old 08-16-2013, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Northeast Suburbs of PITTSBURGH
3,493 posts, read 3,310,418 times
Reputation: 2215
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPLS_TC View Post
City Population
These are populations from the 1890 census.
Cincinnati, O. 296,908
Cleveland, O. 261,353
Pittsburgh, Pa. 237,617
Milwaukee, Wis. 204,468
Minneapolis, Minn. 164,738
St. Paul, Minn. 133,156
Denver, Col. 106,713
Atlanta, Ga. 65,533
Memphis, Tenn. 64,495
Lincoln, Neb. 55,154
Los Angeles, Cal. 50,395
Portland, Ore. 46,385
Seattle, Wash. 43,837
Dallas, Tex. 38,067
San Antonio, Tex. 37,673
Tacoma, Wash. 36,006
Duluth, Minn. 33,115
Yonkers, N. Y. 32,033

This had all this cities old school verse new school in the threads original post. Combine minneapolis and st.paul and your talking 300,000 people in 1890. So I'm not sure Minneapolis or St. Paul belong in the new school group. I threw some other random cities in there for fun.
Well Pittsburgh annexed Allegheny City in 1907 so its population in 1890 would be much, much higher as well.

237,617+105,287= 342,904 in 1890.
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Old 08-16-2013, 07:39 PM
 
574 posts, read 844,681 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by speagles84 View Post
Well Pittsburgh annexed Allegheny City in 1907 so its population in 1890 would be much, much higher as well.

237,617+105,287= 342,904 in 1890.
Pittsburgh is already considered with the old school bunch so whats your point?
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Old 08-16-2013, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Northeast Suburbs of PITTSBURGH
3,493 posts, read 3,310,418 times
Reputation: 2215
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPLS_TC View Post
Pittsburgh is already considered with the old school bunch so whats your point?
I was just pointing out a lot of these cities annexed other areas. In my opinion, I don't think Minneapolis is quite "old school" and its definitely not "new school".
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