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One of the major hurdles with bus routes is the relative difficulty of understanding bus routes compared to fixed rail routes. As more people adopt smartphones, that disadvantage starts to go away.
In regards to this topic, I'd say LA is developing a core and connected neighborhoods that have put it in the tier that DC is, but with the substantial caveat that it's over certain large absolute area comparisons. It's too bad transit development can't be fast-tracked a bit more as the westside subway extension would be an incredible game changer for LA and would be good impetus to throwing even more transit improvements in LA.
At least in LA with the street grid, most every Metro bus basically just runs down one street (20 on Wilshire, 4 on SM Blvd, etc.) The DASH buses are confusing as hell (though just 25c) so I never even tried to go on them, they are mostly a shuttle to get to and from downtown and a few inner neighborhoods.
Jarrett Walker from Human Transit did an interview with LA Metro and I believe one thing he said was in the future Los Angeles should really stick with street-named buses, like the "Vermont Bus" or the "Sunset bus". That might make it a little less intimidating to ride the buses.
One big thing that keeps me from riding the bus in a strange city is I never know where my stop will be. Seems like rail has better signage and you usually have a decent idea of how soon your stop is coming> But unless you know the streets before your stop, sometimes you won't realize your stop is coming before it is too late to get off (especially on a crowded bus).
Jarrett Walker from Human Transit did an interview with LA Metro and I believe one thing he said was in the future Los Angeles should really stick with street-named buses, like the "Vermont Bus" or the "Sunset bus". That might make it a little less intimidating to ride the buses.
That's a good suggestion, particularly if the bus stays on one street primarily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup
One big thing that keeps me from riding the bus in a strange city is I never know where my stop will be. Seems like rail has better signage and you usually have a decent idea of how soon your stop is coming> But unless you know the streets before your stop, sometimes you won't realize your stop is coming before it is too late to get off (especially on a crowded bus).
That's true. There's also the "What if I get off at the wrong stop?" factor. If you get off at the wrong stop on a subway, you simply go to the other side of the platform and wait for the next train. If you get off at the wrong stop on a bus route, you find yourself on the street in a strange environment. Although I guess it's not very difficult to walk to the other side of the street to see if you can get a bus in the opposite direction, it just feels less comforting.
That's true. There's also the "What if I get off at the wrong stop?" factor. If you get off at the wrong stop on a subway, you simply go to the other side of the platform and wait for the next train. If you get off at the wrong stop on a bus route, you find yourself on the street in a strange environment. Although I guess it's not very difficult to walk to the other side of the street to see if you can get a bus in the opposite direction, it just feels less comforting.
Funny thing is that you often have no idea when the next train comes either. There have been times when I've waited on trains for seemingly forever. But I never fretted much because I was in an enclosed station shielded from the elements rather than on the street. And since a subway will usually have more people waiting on it than a bus, it provides a certain psychological dynamic that's difficult for buses to replicate.
I wonder, though, if streetcars will have this same dynamic. Yeah, there's rails, but you're still outside in the cold (at least here) as you would be waiting on the bus. People also prefer subways because they are more reliable, but if streetcars mix with traffic the same way buses do, what would make them any more reliable? Is it the case that buses are just inherently unreliable? Like...if you gave a bus an exclusive ROW, would it run at 40 minute intervals when it's supposed to run at 15?
That's a good suggestion, particularly if the bus stays on one street primarily.
That's true. There's also the "What if I get off at the wrong stop?" factor. If you get off at the wrong stop on a subway, you simply go to the other side of the platform and wait for the next train. If you get off at the wrong stop on a bus route, you find yourself on the street in a strange environment. Although I guess it's not very difficult to walk to the other side of the street to see if you can get a bus in the opposite direction, it just feels less comforting.
I think people forget that mobility is not driving this discussion. Development is driving the discussion for this. Current residents are not driving the discussion. Future residents are driving it. Buses don't foster the kind of investment that metro station's and streetcars do. When it comes to redevelopment, developers feel a lot safer putting multi-million dollar high-rise’s around metro stops and street cars. It's a built in marketing tool to get people to move into these buildings and that is really the whole point. This is about return on investment. Buses lose money. Streetcars pay for themselves with higher density. Building denser around buses is very difficult to do unless there is a thriving neighborhood already located there. Depressed neighborhoods need incentive. You can build just as dense around streetcar routes as you can around metro stops.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 12-23-2013 at 01:33 PM..
One of the only cities I have seen where a large number of people of all demographics ride the bus is Denver. I could be wrong, but it just seems like people in Denver just don't look down on buses or bus riders. There may be a few other cities like that. Portland and Seattle and maybe even Minneapolis. But even here in DC, there seems to be a negative vibe about riding buses, although DC is MUCH better than most major cities, especially midwestern cities.
As far as which city is more urban. I think there are too many variables to answer that. Part of DC proper do not feel very urban at all, while parts are very dense and urban. LA may not have quite the density that parts of central DC does, but the overall LA area is very dense and built up, much more so than the DC area.
Funny thing is that you often have no idea when the next train comes either. There have been times when I've waited on trains for seemingly forever. But I never fretted much because I was in an enclosed station shielded from the elements rather than on the street. And since a subway will usually have more people waiting on it than a bus, it provides a certain psychological dynamic that's difficult for buses to replicate.
I wonder, though, if streetcars will have this same dynamic. Yeah, there's rails, but you're still outside in the cold (at least here) as you would be waiting on the bus. People also prefer subways because they are more reliable, but if streetcars mix with traffic the same way buses do, what would make them any more reliable? Is it the case that buses are just inherently unreliable? Like...if you gave a bus an exclusive ROW, would it run at 40 minute intervals when it's supposed to run at 15?
In LA they list when the next train is coming at the station. I've seen it on the Gold Line recently and it's always been on the Red / Purple Lines.
One of the only cities I have seen where a large number of people of all demographics ride the bus is Denver. I could be wrong, but it just seems like people in Denver just don't look down on buses or bus riders. There may be a few other cities like that. Portland and Seattle and maybe even Minneapolis. But even here in DC, there seems to be a negative vibe about riding buses, although DC is MUCH better than most major cities, especially midwestern cities.
The answer to that is based on the racial demographics of those cities.
In LA they list when the next train is coming at the station. I've seen it on the Gold Line recently and it's always been on the Red / Purple Lines.
New York has those too. They aren't always accurate though.
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