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Old 06-02-2014, 03:32 AM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
9,832 posts, read 7,325,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBoy205 View Post
Source?
He's right: Why wave of Mexican immigration stopped - CNN.com

The fertility rate in Mexico was 7.3 in 1960. It's down to 2.3. A shaky US economy + A robust Mexican economy + fewer young workers most likely to immigrate + less reason to want to immigrate = stalled influx of immigrants from Mexico.
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Old 06-02-2014, 11:56 AM
 
1,168 posts, read 1,180,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
You can do the opposite, though. Denver is known for its outdoor lifestyle and is on the doorstep of the Rockies. This difference may be subjective and may not matter so some, but to discount its importance to many is to apply a very limited understanding of how people form opinion and preference for one area over another.
You can't be serious. Twin Citians have access to several hundreds lakes, miles of bike paths, one of the best park systems in the country, and are within a short distance to areas like the Boundary Waters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Denver is an isolated city, so it's regional importance far exceeds other cities of similar or even slightly larger size. Its sphere of influence is far greater than the Twin Cities. The Twin Cities, an impressive area in its own right, is behind Chicago and Detroit in its region. That's not a knock on the area. Chicago is a heavyweight and Detroit is one of the most significant cities in the country's history, being at the center of our rise to being an industrial powerhouse.
You have nothing to back this claim. Minneapolis is the 15th largest television market whereas Denver is 18th. Minneapolis also has some of the most recognizable companies based there - Target, Best Buy, 3M, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Denver receives more international recognition.
What percentage of the world's population flys to Denver for ski trips? Minneapolis ranks 9th in exports (Denver 30th), has 5 Global Fortune 500 companies (Denver doesn't have any), and the largest private company in the US, Cargill, that has a large presence in several countries. You don't think people in business know of Minneapolis? Minneapolis is also home to the U of M, which attracts foreign research students from all over. Heck, Prince has been introducing Minneapolis to his fans throughout the world over the last 40 years. Where do you think foreign visitors to Mayo Clinic go for shopping / entertainment? They aren't only spending their money in Rochester.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
If there is a significant edge for the Twin Cities over Denver in IT, finance or any other specific field, there is always the chance Denver can close that gap.
What makes you come to this conclusion? Are you assuming that all the Fortune 1,000 companies that are currently based in the Minneapolis area are going to leave? Are you assuming that institutions like the U of M are going to go away? Are you assuming all the government related jobs in both Minneapolis and St. Paul are going? How about the jobs related to the Med-Tech?

As far as financial activity, Minneapolis is well ahead of Denver and I don't think that gap is going to be closed anytime soon.
Banking:
U.S. Bancorp - the fifth largest commercial bank in the U.S. - headquartered in MPLS area
Twin Cities Federal (TCF) - headquartered in MPLS area)
Bremer Financial Corp. - headquartered in MPLS area)
AgriBank Farm Credit System - headquartered in MPLS area)
American Bank of the North - headquartered in MPLS area)
Wells Fargo - The Minneapolis area is headquarters to 18 national Wells Fargo divisions, including Wells Fargo Insurance, Institutional Trust and SBA Funding. The Minneapolis area is home to the second-largest concentration of Wells Fargo employees in the nation.

Federal Reserve
Minneapolis has one of the 12 Federal Reserve Banks

Credit Services:
Green Tree Servicing - headquartered in MPLS area
Residential Capital Corp. - operations based in the MPLS area
Educational Credit Management Corp. - headquartered in MPLS area
GE Capital Fleet Services - operations based in the MPLS area

Investment Banking:
Piper Jaffray – headquartered in MPLS area

Portfolio Management:
Abbot Downing - operations based in the MPLS area
RiverSource Investment (subsidiary of Ameriprise Financial) - headquartered in MPLS area
FAF Advisors - headquartered in MPLS area
Thrivent Financial - headquartered in MPLS area

Financial Transaction Processing:
Ceridian Corp. - (headquartered in MPLS area)

Other companies with a large MPLS presence
RBC Capital Markets
Merrill Lynch
UBS
AllianceBerstein
U.S. Trust Co.
Oak Investment Partners
AON

Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
But there is no world class destination in or immediately outside the Twin Cities like there is outside Denver, so the Twin Cities will likely never see the amount of volume of international travel as a destination as Denver will.
LOL!!! Do you even know where Denver ranks in regards to foreign travel? Furthermore, how does a ski resort make Denver important?

Last edited by YIMBY; 06-02-2014 at 12:14 PM..
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Old 06-02-2014, 05:06 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
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Yimby, do you understand what I mean when I say "qualitative argument?" all your fancy stats are great for people on CD who get their knickers in a twist when someone dares suggest another city might be more prominent than their own, but they probably don't really matter to most people and are probably not as relevant as you think they are. Do you really think for a second the average Target shopper knows where the company is based? Do you think they care? The stats are a part of how prominent a city is, I don't deny that. But they are only part of the story, and probably not even half the story.

Keep in mind, we are not talking about Minneapolis vs Mayberry. Minneapolis is not significantly larger nor are any of its stats you've listed significantly more impressive than Denver. As close as they are it's less important which has more of what than the fact they both have certain items that qualify them as prominent cities. This is confirmed in the fact they are both classifed as beta (-) global cities by an unbiased third party using pretty sound methodology. If you want to talk hard stats, Minneapolis' edge is not significant enough to distance itself. From there the qualitative factors take
over. And it is a lot more subjective than you think.

Also keep in mind I have never claimed Denver to be definitively more important than Minneapolis. Someone said people would be hard pressed to list 15 more important cities. I listed 15 cities (I could have kept going) and said one "can make a real case for being more important..." For several of the cities listed the inverse is true as well. And that's the beauty of a qualitative argument. I've shared some thoughts in this vein. That you dismiss them is irrelevant; they are still legitimate factors many others do consider.

Last edited by iknowftbll; 06-02-2014 at 05:17 PM..
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Old 06-02-2014, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis
2,533 posts, read 2,384,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Yimby, do you understand what I mean when I say "qualitative argument?" all your fancy stats are great for people on CD who get their knickers in a twist when someone dares suggest another city might be more prominent than their own, but they probably don't really matter to most people and are probably not as relevant as you think they are. Do you really think for a second the average Target shopper knows where the company is based? Do you think they care? The stats are a part of how prominent a city is, I don't deny that. But they are only part of the story, and probably not even half the story.

Keep in mind, we are not talking about Minneapolis vs Mayberry. Minneapolis is not significantly larger nor are any of its stats you've listed significantly more impressive than Denver. As close as they are it's less important which has more of what than the fact they both have certain items that qualify them as prominent cities. This is confirmed in the fact they are both classifed as beta (-) global cities by an unbiased third party using pretty sound methodology. If you want to talk hard stats, Minneapolis' edge is not significant enough to distance itself. From there the qualitative factors take
over. And it is a lot more subjective than you think.

Also keep in mind I have never claimed Denver to be definitively more important than Minneapolis. Someone said people would be hard pressed to list 15 more important cities. I listed 15 cities (I could have kept going) and said one "can make a real case for being more important..." For several of the cities listed the inverse is true as well. And that's the beauty of a qualitative argument. I've shared some thoughts in this vein. That you dismiss them is irrelevant; they are still legitimate factors many others do consider.
I have no issue with someone who prefers Denver to Minneapolis for subjective reasons--both are great cities. However, by virtually any metric one uses to objectively measure a city's prominence, Denver is a level below Minneapolis. The GaWC global city ranking you reference, is arranged in order of accumulated points. So while both cities are found in the same general classification, Denver is actually thirteen spots below Minneapolis. Cleveland, Seattle, and Detroit are all ranked below Minneapolis and above Denver.

http://www.lboro.com/gawc/images/world2012t.jpg

Further, on The Ranally City Rating System, Minneapolis is ranked as a 1-AA city (major national business center). Denver joins Seattle in the lower rating of 1-A (other national business center). St Paul is defined as a "secondary major regional business center" (2-BB), while Colorado Springs (2-A) is at the lower level of "other regional business center". Bloomington (3-SS, "suburbs analogous to 3-BB") and Boulder (3-BB) are ranked at the same level.

Ranally city rating system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's an article in Adobeairstream entitled: "Why Minneapolis outranks Denver Culturally".

Why Minneapolis Outranks Denver Culturally | AdobeAirstream

I really have nothing bad to say about Denver--cities are what they are in terms overall urban amenities and profiles, and I appreciate the uniqueness of every big city.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:26 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,300 posts, read 10,457,063 times
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Overall this was a pretty solid post with some valid points. I think I can offer some valid counter-points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogead View Post
I have no issue with someone who prefers Denver to Minneapolis for subjective reasons--both are great cities. However, by virtually any metric one uses to objectively measure a city's prominence, Denver is a level below Minneapolis. The GaWC global city ranking you reference, is arranged in order of accumulated points. So while both cities are found in the same general classification, Denver is actually thirteen spots below Minneapolis. Cleveland, Seattle, and Detroit are all ranked below Minneapolis and above Denver.

http://www.lboro.com/gawc/images/world2012t.jpg
I understand this as well as anyone. But keep in mind the number of cities we are talking about. There's 78 beta cities alone so to be separated by 13 spaces is really not that significant. And remember, we are talking Denver and Minneapolis. Not Denver and San Francisco. Not Denver and Los Angeles. Not Denver and New York. Denver and Minneapolis. This is not a significant jump at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogead View Post
Further, on The Ranally City Rating System, Minneapolis is ranked as a 1-AA city (major national business center). Denver joins Seattle in the lower rating of 1-A (other national business center). St Paul is defined as a "secondary major regional business center" (2-BB), while Colorado Springs (2-A) is at the lower level of "other regional business center". Bloomington (3-SS, "suburbs analogous to 3-BB") and Boulder (3-BB) are ranked at the same level.

Ranally city rating system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This metric is based very closely to economic standing. As YIMBY has already pointed out, Minneapolis has an edge in this category, but I maintain this advantage is less significant outside CD than you may think. Most of these numbers are the farthest thing from the minds of the average Joe. Do you think too many people drive through either city and thinks about that city's GDP? Do people generally drive through a city and think about how many Fortune 500 companies are based there? I'd argue they don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogead View Post
Here's an article in Adobeairstream entitled: "Why Minneapolis outranks Denver Culturally".

Why Minneapolis Outranks Denver Culturally | AdobeAirstream
This is a good subjective article and I'll applaud you for citing it rather than rely solely on quantitative factors. Here is something to keep in mind though: The scope of this article is to rank the two on one metric: Culture. And even then, the article acknowledged Denver faring better internationally than domestically. Not only that, but the gap between visitors to the two cities can probably be explained by Minneapolis' proximity to other major population centers. As I mentioned earlier, Minneapolis is not even the most prominent city in its region. Chicago is greater and Detroit still has a legitimate claim as well. And those are just the big ones. Meanwhile Denver is pretty isolated. This gives it a regional influence much greater than it would have if it were somewhere in the upper Mid-West. So while it was a good article, it is by no means definitive because its scope is limited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogead View Post
I really have nothing bad to say about Denver--cities are what they are in terms overall urban amenities and profiles, and I appreciate the uniqueness of every big city.
Likewise I have nothing against Minneapolis. In fact, Minneapolis is on my short list of hypothetical "if you were forced to move somewhere you've never lived" list. But I also do not believe its prominence over similarly sized cities is as pronounced as was declared earlier in this thread. With exception of some of the heavy weights, you can argue back and forth and each side would be able to score some valid points.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:42 PM
 
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Yawn. Minneapolis needs to be included with St Paul, it is one area. Same with Boston/Cambridge/Somerville. These types of separations are meaningless.
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
Yawn. Minneapolis needs to be included with St Paul, it is one area. Same with Boston/Cambridge/Somerville. These types of separations are meaningless.
I agree that Minneapolis should be included with St. Paul as they are literally neighbors and I when I speak of Minneapolis, I'm referring to Minneapolis - St. Paul. After all, they are both considered as the central core of the Twin Cities metro area. However, some people on this forum freak out when the two are mentioned as one, central core. Even some who are originally from Minneapolis or St. Paul can't handle the two as one core. I have yet to figure out that whole pride thing going on between the two.
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:02 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,300 posts, read 10,457,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
Yawn. Minneapolis needs to be included with St Paul, it is one area. Same with Boston/Cambridge/Somerville. These types of separations are meaningless.
FWIW, whenever I've used the name "Minneapolis" I'm talking about the whole area, including St. Paul, unless otherwise specified.
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:59 PM
 
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Minneapolis has a larger metropolitan area than Denver but Denver proper houses more people than Minneapolis. In fact, Denver has a population of 635,000 people and Minneapolis just 400,000. One has to mention that Denver area is 2.5 times Minneapolis. Denver is less dense than Minneapolis and the difference in density is quite significant between the cities. Minneapolis had a GDP of 220,167 million dollars in 2013 and Denver had a GDP of 167,886 million dollars the same year. One should note that Metropolitan Minneapolis holds 3.4 million people and Metropolitan Denver holds 2.9 million people. Looking at median household income it is higher in Minneapolis (CMSA) than in Denver (CMSA) but only with 3216 US dollar.

The median house-hold income is slightly higher in Minnesota than in Colorado as of 2013 and both of them seem too developed pretty similar after the 2008 crisis. Looking at numbers of high rises – there are 208 in Denver and 246 in Minneapolis but I do not know if these numbers are correct. Minneapolis has 36 buildings that are over 90 meters high but Denver has at least 32 buildings that are over 100 meter high. None of them have subways and both uses light rails – a subway is a sign of a growing urban city and none of the cities seem to think it is important. Both cities are growing rapidly. Denver grew with 8.22 percent 2010-2013 and Minneapolis grew 4.57 percent under the same period. Denver MSA grew with 6.05 percent under 2010-2013 and Minneapolis grew with 3.29 percent. Minneapolis (proper) has still 120,000 people short since 1950 and Denver had never been bigger in 2013.

Minneapolis is a more diverse city than Denver. Minneapolis has 63.8 percent whites and Denver has 68.9 percent whites. I would guess that Minneapolis could end up with a white flight – as so many other cities when the minorities push close to being a majority. What you can see in the statistics is this. Denver had a decline 1980-1990 but turned around and by 2000 they had not only recovered but moved upward which they continue to do. Minneapolis had a decline in 1960-1990 and is still recovering. Population is not everything but is clearly an important factor. Doing a prognosis is difficult (and I have no time) but clearly – both cities seem to be on the move. Denver will likely surpass Memphis, El Paso and Detroit the coming three years based on previous growth. Denver may also grow beyond Seattle, but is also show high population growth. Still, Denver is the third fastest growing city in the US with a population of 500,000. Minneapolis will not even surpass Oakland. When it comes to Denver Metropolis they will likely surpass Baltimore and St. Louis the coming three years. Minneapolis will not surpass anybody but it seems like San Diego is coming closer and close Minneapolis.

The thing here is that Minneapolis Metropolitan Area is playing in the middle of the 3+ million-club but is still far from coming close to the 4+ million club where Detroit is playing. Denver on the other hand is playing in the late 2+ million metropolitan Area club and Denver has only Baltimore and St. Louis and Tampa in front of them. The first two show little development in population and Tampa, who has a good population growth is still not high enough to compete with Denver. Behind Denver there is no competition other than San Antonio, Charlotte and Orlando but they will not grow beyond Denver for a quite some time. It will take 6-10 years until Denver surpass Minneapolis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Detroit still has a legitimate claim as well.
Detroit (proper) continues to rapidly lose population. Detroit Metropolitan Area is still top 15 in United States but it sees no population growth at all. It started to see a drop in 2000 and so it has continued. The entire region is losing population. Yes, even the state is losing its population even if there is some recovery. Detroit will most likely be among the top 25 largest cities in the USA within three years but they may be that 25th city. They recently elected a new Mayor (a smart one) and what did he do? He used 9 million in federal funds to restore 30 homes and then sold them for 2 million dollar. Detroit is a dead city run by the worse kind of crony liberals and has been this way since the 50s. Minneapolis will likely surpass Detroit when it comes to population within 10-15 years.

Last edited by Sconesforme; 06-02-2014 at 09:28 PM..
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:21 PM
 
1,168 posts, read 1,180,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Keep in mind, we are not talking about Minneapolis vs Mayberry. Minneapolis is not significantly larger nor are any of its stats you've listed significantly more impressive than Denver. As close as they are it's less important which has more of what than the fact they both have certain items that qualify them as prominent cities. This is confirmed in the fact they are both classifed as beta (-) global cities by an unbiased third party using pretty sound methodology. If you want to talk hard stats, Minneapolis' edge is not significant enough to distance itself. From there the qualitative factors take
over. And it is a lot more subjective than you think.
The same organization that uses such sound methodology to come up with Alpha, Beta, and Gamma cities, has also ranked cities / MSAs and how they are positioned against other cities in the world as far as concentration of corporate power.

North*American*Cities(MSA)*Control*and*Command*Ind ex*Rank*in*the*world,*2012
2 New York
7 San Jose
8 San Francisco
11 Dallas
12 Washington DC
14 Chicago
15 Toronto
16 Houston
23 Minneapolis

US*Cities(MSA)*ranked*by*Domestic*Control*and*Comm and,*2012
1 New York
2 San Jose
3 Washington DC
4 San Francisco
5 Dallas
6 Chicago
7 Houston
8 Minneapolis
9 Seattle
10 Charlotte
11 Atlanta
12 Bridgeport
13 Detroit
14 Fayetteville
15 Philadelphia
16 Los Angeles
17 Omaha
18 Cincinnati
19 Boston
20 Hartford
21 Pittsburgh
22 Denver
23 St Louis
24 Indianapolis
25 Richmond

I don't really want to turn this into a Minneapolis vs Denver thread so this will be my last post regarding this topic. Both are great cities, one which I reluctantly moved to and now consider home and one that I have been visiting multiple times a year for the past several years and enjoy very much.
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