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Ive been to all 3. Pittsburgh only once, but Denver several times. Imo, Denver is the top metro between these 3 by the criteria in the OP, but its not a runaway winner. I also didnt vote, but just my 2 cents.
Yeah, I've been to all three too. The three might be close in some areas, but it isn't even close when it comes to things like Retail Mix, Amenities, Entertainment and Transit.
Pittsburgh= Stunning landscape, very green, very hilly to mountainous, with 3 rivers converging downtown. Incredible OLD diversity, very urban. Very ethnic neighborhoods with flava.
Charlotte=Green, very forested, Not urban, suburban, no true diversity,very spread out and sparse.
Denver=Mostly barren and flat until you get to the extreme western suburbs. Semi urban. Semi diversity.
Pittsburgh= Stunning landscape, very green, very hilly to mountainous, with 3 rivers converging downtown. Incredible OLD world diversity, very urban. Very ethnic neighborhoods with flava.
Charlotte=Green, very forested, Not urban, suburban, no true diversity,very spread out and sparse.
Denver=Mostly barren and flat until you get to the extreme western suburbs. Semi urban. Semi diversity.
Yeah, I've been to all three too. The three might be close in some areas, but it isn't even close when it comes to things like Retail Mix, Amenities, Entertainment and Transit.
I'm not aware of Pittsburgh retail mix, but Denver and Charlotte seem pretty on par with each other. I think, outside of transit, the other 3 categories could easily be up for debate.
Transit, Denver edges out Pittsburgh, with Charlotte 3rd.
I agree with you about CSAs- the reason I mentioned them in this case is that Boulder is considered multinodal and there's no one that lives on the Front Range or that's ever visited the city that wouldn't consider it (there is ZERO break in the development) part of the Denver Metro. In effect, Denver is penalized because Boulder actually has jobs and a thriving economy. Anyway, I mentioned media market size because it speaks to the point you make about the role of a city and its importance to the region. Again, Denver has an advantage in that area.
Point taken.
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In terms of my point about annexation- I'm not confused, but my comment was a little confusing. I'm really talking about two things. First, Charlotte itself is very annexation-happy. That's not really out of the ordinary; many cities like to do so. But the city also loves touting itself as the 17th largest in the country, leapfrogging many cities that can't expand their borders but for all intents would be considered bigger. Very little of it would be considered "urbanized area"- which as you mentioned may be a more accurate measure.
The second point is that outside of NYC, Charlotte experienced the biggest overnight revision of population of any metropolitan area in the country. You're right, the rules were followed, but it's misleading. No one driving through 99% of Lincoln County, NC or Chester County, SC would possibly think that they're getting close to a big city. So all of the MSA expansion is in low-density areas. Charlotte's MSA expansion had everything to do with the amount of the workforce living in far-flung suburbs willing to drive a distance to their jobs. With developers running the show and no geographical boundaries, there's nothing really stopping Charlotte from being reclassified as a "3 million metro" but that wouldn't change much, in terms of amenities, regional infrastructure, etc. So no, the expansion wasn't artificial, but it may come across as a little confusing. After all, it's also one of the least dense, least walkable, heavily sprawled metros in the country. Here's an interesting article on the topic: The Evolving Urban Form: Charlotte | Newgeography.com
I think the issue is that people really think of MSAs as consisting of completely built-up areas, but that would be the urbanized area. Outside of the Northeast megalopolis (and that are probably some exceptions there also), practically all MSAs will include counties that have a significant rural quality to them. MSAs, however, are labor markets, not urbanized areas. And there's probably only another county or two at most that Charlotte might realistically add to its MSA in the near future. It's already bumping up against adjacent metro areas, like Columbia's to the south.
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Don't get me wrong. Charlotte has a lot of things going for it- many of my close friends live there and love their affordable, huge houses and relatively pleasant existence. To many that is quite desirable, which I understand. The QOL is high for the money. My Charlotte friends can all afford things like boats and game rooms and higher-end cars while many of us in other places are just trying to find affordable places to live. But I've never seen a place that had a bigger Napoleonic complex. Charlotte and its residents love to brag about their city and its population, and I think it's a little overdone. To me, Charlotte tends to feel like one huge suburb with skyscrapers, not a big city. And with very little urbanized area overall in the Charlotte MSA, I can understand why some people don't think that it provides them with the experience that they're looking for-
So whether it's a half-tier or a whole tier is subjective. But I don't think that many people think of Charlotte as being on the same level as Denver, and just adding more strip malls or single-family lots 45 miles from Uptown won't close the gap.
Well Charlotte was late to the "big city" game compared to Denver and Pittsburgh, so its urban fabric isn't quite as developed at the moment. However, it's making lots of progress fast within the core, especially along the light rail line; TOD developments abound. And with the expansion of the line, that infill will also continue to the north. Things are rapidly changing in Charlotte.
I'm not aware of Pittsburgh retail mix, but Denver and Charlotte seem pretty on par with each other.
Well Pittsburgh got its IKEA long before Denver or Charlotte, and it's only city in North America with a Primadonna Collection. In fact, it's the only such store in the world that's not in Europe, the Middle East or northern Africa.
I'm sure Denver and Charlotte have more shopping options, though, considering they came of age during an era of mass consumption while Pittsburgh became the first major U.S. city to get thrown away during the same period of time.
Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
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Originally Posted by bigstick
Pittsburgh= Stunning landscape, very green, very hilly to mountainous, with 3 rivers converging downtown. Incredible OLD world diversity, very urban. Very ethnic neighborhoods with flava.
Charlotte=Green, very forested, Not urban, suburban, no true diversity,very spread out and sparse. Denver=Mostly barren and flat until you get to the extreme western suburbs. Semi urban. Semi diversity.
Take your pick.
This is misleading, I think barren and flat is an accurate description for the airport which is way out of town. The city of Denver itself has mature trees and nice landscaping and certainly not barren. Denver's hills start to rise just to the west of downtown and I-25. You describe Pittsburgh as having a stunning landscape (and it does), though the views of the Rockies from Denver itself (not very far at all) are quite stunning as well with gorgeous sunsets. Denver has a number of beautiful parks to take in these stunning views. And it goes without saying the "mountains" outside of Pittsburgh pale in comparison to the Colorado's Rockies.
Pittsburgh has the old historic bones, and Denver being described as semi urban is true, though it is rapidly infilling around its core with urban density and development and also exponentially increasing its mass transit infrastructure at a much faster pace than Pittsburgh or Charlotte.
Last edited by Champ le monstre du lac; 08-29-2014 at 08:05 AM..
Pittsburgh= Stunning landscape, very green, very hilly to mountainous, with 3 rivers converging downtown. Incredible OLD world diversity, very urban. Very ethnic neighborhoods with flava.
Charlotte=Green, very forested, Not urban, suburban, no true diversity,very spread out and sparse.
Denver=Mostly barren and flat until you get to the extreme western suburbs. Semi urban. Semi diversity.
Based on the census data Pittsburgh is the least diverse and most whitest (by over 10%) of the three although the diversity ratios are pretty close between Charlotte and Denver with the most noticeable difference being inverse relationships between each city's AA and Hispanic population.
Pittsburgh= Stunning landscape, very green, very hilly to mountainous, with 3 rivers converging downtown. Incredible OLD world diversity, very urban. Very ethnic neighborhoods with flava.
Charlotte=Green, very forested, Not urban, suburban, no true diversity,very spread out and sparse.
Denver=Mostly barren and flat until you get to the extreme western suburbs. Semi urban. Semi diversity.
Take your pick.
Pittsburgh may have a stunning landscape. But what difference does it make wen the mills and the factories are spewing filth into the air and into the rivers tarnishing this landscape that you can't see through the smog. I know this for a fact because I saw photos in an old textbook where streetlights were turned on at noon.
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