Where Should We Move: Ann Arbor, or Traverse City? (living, best, cost)

[Green Guy]

For a some time now, my wife and I have been researching places to relocate. After many months of research, these two cities have emerged as the two most viable options that we can see. I would consider these 2 cities to be the finalists in our little relocation competition.

It's very important to note that we can work from anywhere (we work from home), so we don't need to worry about gaining employment wherever we move.

Here are our main criteria points:

• Outdoor activities - Hiking, cycling, swimming, and boating are important.
• Beautiful nature
• Four distinct seasons - We love snow, but we also don't want it to be too gloomy and gray in the winter
• Low cost of living and taxes
• Health/organic food and restaurants - It's important for us to have a good amount of options, at least for organic grocery stores.
• Low crime, Safe
• Great place to raise a family
• Friendly folks
• Prosperous populous and economy - Definitely don't want to live in a place that's too blue-collar, rust-belt-ish, or economically depressed.
• Clean air, very low pollution
• A swimmable, boat-able, clean body of water
• Able to get a large amount of land (5 acres minimum) without totally breaking the bank.

Our budget is going to be about $450k. There might be some flexibility in that, though.

I'll just tell you my concerns about each city right from the get go, and why the decision is challenging for us:

Traverse City:

• Really geographically isolated from any population center
• I like smaller cities, but I'm concerned the area is just too small and sparsely populated.
• Gray, dreary winters just like where I'm from (between Cleveland and Buffalo). If I can live anywhere I want, why would I pick a place that's just as dreary as where I started?
• Lack of options when it comes to organic grocery stores

Ann Arbor:

• There doesn't seem to be a clean and large body of water that we'd be very comfortable using for swimming and boating. I've said this before, but I don't really trust the stretch of Lake Erie immediately between Detroit and Toledo, or Lake St. Clair. Most other inland lakes seem like they are pretty small. This is the big drawback of Ann Arbor when compared to a place like Traverse City.
• I'm wondering if the town is a little too college-centric and will be totally dominated by college kids. Would someone in late 20's, 30's or 40's who never attended the U of M feel a little bit like an outsider?
• Proximity to Detroit: any potential issues with crime, pollution, traffic, etc.

Any clarity that you guys can provide will be huge for us.

[mjlo]

You should probably split the difference and look into Grand Rapids honestly. It hits all of your points, with the exception of having Trader Joes and Whole Foods (Though that is scheduled to change). There are other organic stores in the area, plenty of farm to table restaurants, and a few really awesome farmers markets. It's strongest point is going to prosperous economy and growing population. It has one of the highest growth rates in the nation for people with Bachelors degrees or higher.

If you don't mind smaller cities look deeper into Traverse City, it's the Anchor of a 200k micropolitan area which puts it right around the size of Burlington Vermont. It's not considered a metropolitan area because it doesn't have a core city of 50k or more, but it's definitely an urban area. Outside of that its airport serves about 400k passengers a year which makes it busier than some mid sized metro areas. Also its retail offerings are also on par with a medium size metro area and in the summertime (which is phenomenal in Michigan) it's population swells with a fairly elite seasonal resident base. The population numbers on paper would be misleading. However the nearest Major metro is still going to be Grand Rapids. Grand Traverse County is the fastest growing county in Michigan, and it's unemployment rate is hovering around 4%, economically it's doing just fine. The access to nature in the area speaks for itself, and is known nationally. I'd say that would be the strongest point. Bottom line is you're not going to feel like you're in that small of a city if you move there.

Ann Arbor is well known, and worrying about it's proximity to Detroit is most likely because you have a lack of knowledge of the area. Detroit's suburbs are well known for their quality of life and low crime, so a city like Ann Arbor that is even further out wouldn't be affected by it at all. The pollution for the Detroit area is no more than any area it's size perhaps even less. Obviously the University is going to have a big influence, but Ann Arbor is not a one horse town. It's got a decent tech presence and is the home to multiple R&D centers for foreign automakers. Ann Arbor not surprisingly has one of the highest educational attainment rates among its population and it shows. Decent population and job growth. It's proximity to the Detroit area is a plus with the access to the shopping variety of a 4.5million metro. Also with an established organic scene. The only real draw back is proximity to the nature things you are looking for which Traverse is going to be centered in, and Grand Rapids is only minutes from.

You really need to investigate in person because there are pluses to both.

[Sharks With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Green Guy

For a some time now, my wife and I have been researching places to relocate. After many months of research, these two cities have emerged as the two most viable options that we can see. I would consider these 2 cities to be the finalists in our little relocation competition.

It's very important to note that we can work from anywhere (we work from home), so we don't need to worry about gaining employment wherever we move.

Here are our main criteria points:

• Outdoor activities - Hiking, cycling, swimming, and boating are important. Due to being larger, there are probably going to be more urban/suburban trails for hiking and cycling in Ann Arbor, whereas in Traverse City there are going to be more opportunities in the woods and on smaller roads. Traverse City would win hands down in terms of swimming and boating.
• Beautiful nature Traverse City is located in one of the most picturesque places in Michigan. Ann Arbor is nice, but not overly scenic.
• Four distinct seasons - We love snow, but we also don't want it to be too gloomy and gray in the winter It's going to be gloomy and gray in the winter in Michigan. Traverse City will get a LOT more snow. Ann Arbor is probably a little less gloomy.
• Low cost of living and taxes For Michigan - these places are kind of expensive. Compared to some places in the U.S., they're about average though.
• Health/organic food and restaurants - It's important for us to have a good amount of options, at least for organic grocery stores. Ann Arbor wins this hands down.
• Low crime, Safe Both places are safe.
• Great place to raise a family This is kind of subjective depending on what you want. I think both school systems are good though.
• Friendly folks Ann Arbor is a very intellectual city, rivaling Berkeley and Cambridge. People there are friendly, but can come across as a bit pretentious or snobbish at times. If you're into the ultra-intellectual scene, Ann Arbor is amazing - if you revile it, then you might not feel comfortable there. Traverse City is a tourist town, but I would say that the community is fairly "average" in terms of who lives there, although it's not diverse at all.
• Prosperous populous and economy - Definitely don't want to live in a place that's too blue-collar, rust-belt-ish, or economically depressed. Ann Arbor is definitely not this. Since Traverse City is heavily dependent on tourism, the area can be a bit economically depressed (not in a "Rust Belt" way though.)
• Clean air, very low pollution Probably better in Traverse City due to less people there.
• A swimmable, boat-able, clean body of water Traverse City wins this
• Able to get a large amount of land (5 acres minimum) without totally breaking the bank. Can this land be anything? If so, you might get some fields/light woods for 450K. You're not going to get prime real-estate with lakefront property for 450K.

Our budget is going to be about $450k. There might be some flexibility in that, though.

I'll just tell you my concerns about each city right from the get go, and why the decision is challenging for us:

Traverse City:

• Really geographically isolated from any population center True, although you could get to Grand Rapids in a little over 2 hours and a few other smaller cities (Mt. Pleasant, Midland) in about the same amount of time.
• I like smaller cities, but I'm concerned the area is just too small and sparsely populated.
• Gray, dreary winters just like where I'm from (between Cleveland and Buffalo). If I can live anywhere I want, why would I pick a place that's just as dreary as where I started?
• Lack of options when it comes to organic grocery stores

Ann Arbor:

• There doesn't seem to be a clean and large body of water that we'd be very comfortable using for swimming and boating. I've said this before, but I don't really trust the stretch of Lake Erie immediately between Detroit and Toledo, or Lake St. Clair. Most other inland lakes seem like they are pretty small. This is the big drawback of Ann Arbor when compared to a place like Traverse City.
• I'm wondering if the town is a little too college-centric and will be totally dominated by college kids. Would someone in late 20's, 30's or 40's who never attended the U of M feel a little bit like an outsider? This shouldn't be a problem in Ann Arbor. People come there from all over the country and the world.
• Proximity to Detroit: any potential issues with crime, pollution, traffic, etc. Traffic - maybe. But that's going to be a problem in any city (including Traverse City in the summer.) Crime is lower than the national average for cities from what I understand.

Any clarity that you guys can provide will be huge for us.

My answers in red.

[NOLA101]

Based on your standards, definitely Traverse City. You want a cheap, outdoorsy area, and Ann Arbor is neither. It's the most expensive part of the state, and has almost nothing outdoorsy.

But then you say you are worried that TC is too small and isolated, which I don't get. If you want cheap and outdoorsy, obviously the location will be a small, isolated city. If it were a big, well-located city, it would be expensive and not outdoorsy.

[Green Guy]

Originally Posted by NOLA101

Based on your standards, definitely Traverse City. You want a cheap, outdoorsy area, and Ann Arbor is neither. It's the most expensive part of the state, and has almost nothing outdoorsy.

But then you say you are worried that TC is too small and isolated, which I don't get. If you want cheap and outdoorsy, obviously the location will be a small, isolated city. If it were a big, well-located city, it would be expensive and not outdoorsy.

There's more to it than just cheap and outdoorsy. If that's all we cared about, we'd have plenty of options in the middle of nowhere. If all we wanted was cheap and outdoorsy, it would be a joke to even post this thread.

Yes, we want a place with access to nice outdoor fun; but we also want a nice, small-to-medium size city with some nice amenities, options, prosperity and energy. At the same time though, I want to make it clear that we do not need a big city, we don't care about anything "urban", we don't really care too much about cosmopolitan offerings. We want to live in the country and have land...and I guess if we absolutely had to pick between good outdoor living and having a decent town nearby, we'd probably have to go with the outdoor living.

But is it reasonable to say that Ann Arbor has no outdoor recreation available? Looks like just in the immediate AA area, there are over 150 parks: Parks and Places and that page isn't including some of the larger state parks outside of the city like Waterloo, Pinckney, Brighton, Island Lake, etc; as well as the inland lakes dotted in and around those areas. It obviously can't really compete with TC in terms of nature, but it's still pretty decent stuff, right?

I should definitely say I don't want to live inside of either city. I'm fine with being up to a half hour from the city if it means nice nature, nice outdoors, access to lakes, etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but i feel like TC wins for outdoor recreation, beauty, affordability, and land; while AA wins for city amenities, shopping, prosperity, education, and perhaps having a youthful and positive energy. And I'm not so sure that either city is a total failure in the categories that it's not better at...it's just not quite as good as the other town.

[NOLA101]

Most of the area around Ann Arbor is flat, boring farmland. Yes, there parks, like everywhere on the planet, but it is not somewhere I would consider if I were an outdoorsy type. And, for Michigan standards, it is extremely expensive, not just housing, but everything (restaurants, groceries, parking, gas, daycare, etc.).

But, at the same time, you're right that its quite prosperous, cosmopolitan and the like. It's a great place to get a job. It has a high quality of life.

I think it will be difficult to reconcile all your preferences, so you will have to prioritize what, in the end, is most important.

[animatedmartian]

If you're not going to be within either city but outside of them, then price isn't going to be that different between them. Ann Arbor is only expensive inside of Ann Arbor but most of Washtenaw County is pretty average and still quite rural (albeit rapidly being developed).

Like another poster said, if you want the best of both world then look around the Grand Rapids area.

[NOLA101]

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

If you're not going to be within either city but outside of them, then price isn't going to be that different between them. Ann Arbor is only expensive inside of Ann Arbor but most of Washtenaw County is pretty average and still quite rural (albeit rapidly being developed).

Not really true, though. The sprawl outside of Ann Arbor proper is also quite expensive, at least for Michigan standards. Excepting Ypsilanti and the crappy areas to the east, pretty much everything within 20-30 minutes of Ann Arbor is fairly pricey.

Even sprawl in Oakland County, pound for pound, is much cheaper than sprawl outside of Ann Arbor, and Oakland County is the richest part of the state.

[Republic of Michigan]

Michigan has over 3100 miles of coastline. Have you considered choosing one of the hundreds of towns that dot them? Frankfort, Ludington, Saugutuck, Holland, Grand Haven, Manistee, Glen Arbor, Chalevoix, Petoskey, Leland, and Sutton's Bay on the West Coast.

Oscoda, Alpena, Tawas, Lexington, Bay City on the East Coast,

Or the UP? Marquette, St. Ignace, Manistique, Sault Sainte Marie, De Tour, Cedarville.

Ann Arbor is an inland city. While nice, it does not capture the beauty of the land and water all around you.

[Green Guy]

I think our choices have been narrowed down to Michigan, Upstate New York, and possibly some locations in New England away from BosWash.

Heck, even just factoring in that we want a real 4 season climate with at least 30"+ of snow and a forested landscape cuts out way more than half of the country.

Add to that the fact that we don't want any of the crazy traffic and chaos of the Northeast corridor and that we want to be near a good-sized lake and now you've really narrowed it down.

Then there's the matter of snow belts. We like snow, but tons of snow also means tons of gray. We should know: we're from between Cleveland and Buffalo. Factoring in wanting to avoid snow belts as much as possible, most of Western Upstate New York is a no-go, as it's the KING of the snow belt, and gloomy winters abound. Winters that would make Cleveland look sunny by comparison. I'm not really kidding.

I'm not sure if the numbers in this image are super accurate, but it illustrates the point:



Grand Rapids and TC are squarely in the Lake Michigan snow belt, but Ann Arbor is outside of it. The climate data on the respective Wikipedia pages for Grand Rapids and Detroit shows that Detroit on average receives an additional 247 hours of sunshine annually and has an 8-10% better possibility of sunshine throughout the winter months.

How noticeable that difference will actually be, I have no idea though. But just looking at the data, it's a big advantage Ann Arbor has in my opinion.