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Old 04-17-2015, 02:24 AM
 
Location: Both coasts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
My experience with NYC is rather limited since I've only been there 4 times on extended weekend trips (I stayed in Harlem, the UES, Astoria, and spent most of my time in Manhattan), but it honestly never really felt un-American to me, or like I was in a different country.

Obviously there's a lot of the outer boroughs that I haven't seen, but Manhattan definitely felt American.
And it is clear that you have never officially stepped out of the country
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Old 04-17-2015, 02:50 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f1000 View Post
And it is clear that you have never officially stepped out of the country
I have left the United States on multiple occasions, but I never said that I did so by going to New York, or that New York felt like it was outside of the country
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Old 04-17-2015, 03:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
I have left the United States on multiple occasions, but I never said that I did so by going to New York, or that New York felt like it was outside of the country
Obviously it doesn't feel like Bangkok or something, but NYC clearly feels "different" compared to most typical cities in the U.S. It is unique in so many ways, that it would be impossible to visit and argue otherwise.

I mean, in no other city does transit dominate. You never noticed that while in NYC? In no other city is there such density, nor such crowds of people. You didn't notice this either? In no other city is parking a rare luxury. In no other city are garbage disposals rare, or alleys unknown, or building water tanks the norm.

It's a city with no WalMarts, a city where average adults have never held a drivers license, a city where there is no north or south, only uptown and downtown. College football is almost unknown, no one stands "in line", they stand "on line", and every store/restaurant worth a damn does in-home delivery. "Supermarkets" are often 5,000 square feet, every street has a "bodega" every few blocks, and Jamaican beef patties and grandma slices are like hot dogs in middle America.

It doesn't really feel like typical America, at all, IMO.
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Old 04-17-2015, 03:54 PM
 
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We don't have too many thankfully but Miami, Dearborn, South LA, & El Paso come to mind.
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Old 04-17-2015, 03:56 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Obviously it doesn't feel like Bangkok or something, but NYC clearly feels "different" compared to most typical cities in the U.S. It is unique in so many ways, that it would be impossible to visit and argue otherwise.
A lot of America's major cities will feel "different" from one another, but those differences aren't enough to make them feel un-American to me. At least the ones that I've been to so far anyway.

Quote:
I mean, in no other city does transit dominate. You never noticed that while in NYC? In no other city is there such density, nor such crowds of people. You didn't notice this either? In no other city is parking a rare luxury. In no other city are garbage disposals rare, or alleys unknown, or building water tanks the norm.
To be honest, it didn't feel different enough from Chicago to phase me. Yes, the MTA is more extensive than the CTA, and more people ride it, but you're still going to have similar public transit annoyances in terms of it not being the most convenient mode of transportation in some places. As for crowds, most dense and walkable cities have them, but New York had more. Again, so what? If anything the crowds annoyed me, because instead of being able to cut over a block and find a more quiet street during the day in downtown, I simply slammed into more people. The neighborhoods outside of downtown were slower and more what I was used to.

As for water tower tanks and garbage disposals, who honestly even notices such things when they're visiting? I know there are some in the neighborhood that I live in in Chicago, but I don't care about them, nor was I on the lookout for them in NYC. Whether New York has 100x more of them than Chicago makes little difference to me, and most likely to the vast majority of tourists. The same goes for a garbage disposal. I was staying with friends, who typically lived in older buildings that were, at best, updated. One of them did have a garbage disposal, I think, which is something I can that I've never had in almost 6 years of living in Chicago. Same issue though, it's the older buildings.

The alley thing was honestly my biggest issue with NYC. Oh dear Lord does Manhattan smell awful in the middle of July.

Quote:
It's a city with no WalMarts, a city where average adults have never held a drivers license, a city where there is no north or south, only uptown and downtown. College football is almost unknown, no one stands "in line", they stand "on line", and every store/restaurant worth a damn does in-home delivery. "Supermarkets" are often 5,000 square feet, every street has a "bodega" every few blocks, and Jamaican beef patties and grandma slices are like hot dogs in middle America.

It doesn't really feel like typical America, at all, IMO.
So what? Are you going to make the argument that those differences outweigh everything that's familiar and American about New York? Other large cities have no Walmarts, or just a few if any. You're also not going to know about the drivers license fact unless someone told you, because you certainly won't think it from visiting considering the streets are full of cars and traffic. Even one of my friends who I stayed with has a car. He has a space underneath his building.

As for college football, I never cared about it anyway, so it made no difference to me, I never heard the stand on line thing, and I never had the need to get something delivered because I ate out basically every day I was there. Maybe a higher percentage of places deliver in NYC, but let's not act like that other places in the country don't use Grubhub or Seamless.

As for the bodegas, my only experience with them was that I found it annoying that the ones in Harlem didn't bother to sell much alcohol, if any at all. If they did it was going to be beer, so you literally had to trek to find some place that sold hard alcohol. That was something I did find annoying, but it didn't terribly phase me. As for the street food, I enjoyed it. It was nice being able to get food almost anywhere anytime, and it made me wish that Chicago would legalize foodcarts.

To generalize, New York only felt bigger than what I am used. More concrete jungle, more tall buildings, more trains, more people, etc. Foreign or un-American, however? No. It's a city full of stores and brands that I've heard of and have at home, it's majority full of Americans, even though it does have a high foreign born population, and the vast majority of its tourists are also domestic ones.

I personally found Los Angeles the harder city to adjust to in terms of what I am used to. The sprawled, decentralized nature, the lack of greenery, the almost complete need for a car, the overlap between the city and other towns/municipalities in LA County, even larger number of Spanish speakers than I'm used to, etc. Still, there are other American cities that are like that as well, even though mine isn't one of them. The American aspects, like with NYC, still won through in the end there too though.
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Old 04-17-2015, 05:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
A lot of America's major cities will feel "different" from one another, but those differences aren't enough to make them feel un-American to me. At least the ones that I've been to so far anyway.
Really? Then name one.

There is no other major U.S. city where most people have no car. There is no other major U.S. city where people live at such high densities. There is no other major U.S. city without alleys. I don't believe there's one without a WalMart, I don't believe there's one where garbage disposals were illegal, or where bodegas are common, or where college football is almost unknown.

If there are other such cities, then surely you can mention at least one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
To be honest, it didn't feel different enough from Chicago to phase me.
I guess that's your prerogative, but reality says otherwise. Just using my examples, Chicago is dominated by cars, not transit, Chicago has no such density as in NYC, Chicago has alleys everywhere, Chicago has tons of WalMarts, everyone in Chicago has garbage disposals, college football is extremely popular, bodegas are unknown, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
Yes, the MTA is more extensive than the CTA, and more people ride it, but you're still going to have similar public transit annoyances in terms of it not being the most convenient mode of transportation in some places. As for crowds, most dense and walkable cities have them, but New York had more. Again, so what? If anything the crowds annoyed me, because instead of being able to cut over a block and find a more quiet street during the day in downtown, I simply slammed into more people. The neighborhoods outside of downtown were slower and more what I was used to.
You can say that of any city. Chicago is the same as Peoria, because, hey, they both have public transit, and it isn't convenient for everyone, and they both have people on the street, but Chicago has more, so what? As you said, if anything, the crowds in Chicago are annoying because you slam into more people than Peoria. The neighborhoods outside of downtown Chicago are slower and more like Peoria, I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
As for water tower tanks and garbage disposals, who honestly even notices such things when they're visiting?
I certainly notice buildings, from the outside and inside. It seems odd you don't. What's the point of visiting anyplace if you don't notice the differences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
I know there are some in the neighborhood that I live in in Chicago, but I don't care about them, nor was I on the lookout for them in NYC. Whether New York has 100x more of them than Chicago makes little difference to me, and most likely to the vast majority of tourists.
Then you have a unique perspective on life, I guess. Why do you live in Chicago if you would be just as home in a city 1/100 the size? If, to you, every city is the same as long as it has buildings and streets and cars, then why travel anywhere? Why not just live in the cheapest possible place you can find in rural Mississippi or somewhere?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
The same goes for a garbage disposal. I was staying with friends, who typically lived in older buildings that were, at best, updated. One of them did have a garbage disposal, I think, which is something I can that I've never had in almost 6 years of living in Chicago. Same issue though, it's the older buildings.
No, it has nothing to do with "older buildings". Garbage disposals were illegal in NYC until recently, and are generally still quite rare, because of unique plumbing/disposal issues that prevent their installation in most buildings, regardless of building age.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
The alley thing was honestly my biggest issue with NYC. Oh dear Lord does Manhattan smell awful in the middle of July.
Alleys have nothing to do with how a city smells. That doesn't even make a hint of sense. NYC doesn't smell different from any other cities in the developed world.

Based on your comments, you sound like someone who has never been to NYC, and hasn't really traveled, anywhere. You sound like your perspective on cities is based on 1980's Hollywood movies or something. Next we'll hear about giant alligators in the sewer, or fast-talking Italian gangsters named Vinnny you met in a Brooklyn pizzeria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
So what? Are you going to make the argument that those differences outweigh everything that's familiar and American about New York?
Yes, in fact I just made such an argument. You are the only one at C-D that seems to disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
Other large cities have no Walmarts, or just a few if any.
Could you name these "large cities"? Just one, please. Take the 10 largest U.S. city propers, and name one without a WalMart. Hell, name one without 5 built or planned WalMarts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
You're also not going to know about the drivers license fact unless someone told you, because you certainly won't think it from visiting considering the streets are full of cars and traffic.
Every city on earth is "full of cars and traffic". Drivers licenses have nothing to do with "cars and traffic". If driving a personal car were illegal in Manhattan, the streets would still be "full of cars and traffic" because most of the traffic consists of delivery vehicles, car services, and for hire cars (mostly cabs), not private cars (which, again, is yet another difference between NYC and every other city in the U.S.).
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
Even one of my friends who I stayed with has a car. He has a space underneath his building.
Now you're probably lying, as this is quite rare in Manhattan. Tell us where your friend lives. Give us the address. Let's take a look around his neighborhood, and see if this is common.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
As for college football, I never cared about it anyway, so it made no difference to me, I never heard the stand on line thing, and I never had the need to get something delivered because I ate out basically every day I was there.
So now you're arguing that NYC isn't different because you are personally ignorant of differences that make it different? Very odd line of reasoning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
Maybe a higher percentage of places deliver in NYC, but let's not act like that other places in the country don't use Grubhub or Seamless.
No place on earth doesn't have delivery. Your point is? Columbus, Ohio is now the same at Kinshasa or Kathmandu?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
As for the bodegas, my only experience with them was that I found it annoying that the ones in Harlem didn't bother to sell much alcohol, if any at all.
I have never heard of a bodega that doesn't sell alcohol. Sounds like more made-up nonsense. Why don't you give the address of this alcohol-free bodega?
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Old 04-17-2015, 06:29 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Really? Then name one.

There is no other major U.S. city where most people have no car. There is no other major U.S. city where people live at such high densities. There is no other major U.S. city without alleys. I don't believe there's one without a WalMart, I don't believe there's one where garbage disposals were illegal, or where bodegas are common, or where college football is almost unknown.

If there are other such cities, then surely you can mention at least one.
San Francisco does not have any Walmarts, nor does Boston. I had originally thought that DC didn't either, but they have two. Like I said, there are other cities in this country that have either none, or just a few.

I had no idea about the garbage disposal thing, and I honestly still couldn't care less. As for densities, I never said that another city was as dense, but NYC being denser simply makes it feel bigger, like I said. It doesn't make it feel un-American, unless you think we don't have any other cities in this nation that could reasonably be described as dense.

Quote:
I guess that's your prerogative, but reality says otherwise. Just using my examples, Chicago is dominated by cars, not transit, Chicago has no such density as in NYC, Chicago has alleys everywhere, Chicago has tons of WalMarts, everyone in Chicago has garbage disposals, college football is extremely popular, bodegas are unknown, etc.
It's not just me. Unless you're coming from a small town, or a city like Los Angeles which feels entirely different, NYC isn't exactly going to be a mind blowing experience. Is it awesome? Yes? Is it different? Yes. Is it vastly larger? Yes. Do you not know what to do with yourself because it's just so different and un-American? Hardly. There are differences, but they're simply enough to adjust to.

I also never said that Chicago didn't have more cars, but Chicago does have one of the best public transit systems in this country, and it's easy enough to live car free here. I do it myself.

Chicago has 9 Walmarts, and almost all of them are the small market variety. I'd hardly call that a ton, but obviously more than NY's 0. I believe there's one normal sized Walmart in the whole city, and it's on the West Side.

Also not everyone in Chicago has a garbage disposal. Not even close. Out of my group of friends, one friend has one because she's renting a newly updated unit. I personally have never had one living here, although that might change when I move this summer.

Quote:
You can say that of any city. Chicago is the same as Peoria, because, hey, they both have public transit, and it isn't convenient for everyone, and they both have people on the street, but Chicago has more, so what? As you said, if anything, the crowds in Chicago are annoying because you slam into more people than Peoria. The neighborhoods outside of downtown Chicago are slower and more like Peoria, I guess.
Oh please, as I said Chicago actually has a good system. Are you honestly this annoyed that I wasn't blown away by NYC's system? Ridiculous.

I already stated that it's used more, and vastly more expansive in its size. It isn't perfect though.

Quote:
I certainly notice buildings, from the outside and inside. It seems odd you don't. What's the point of visiting anyplace if you don't notice the differences?
Considering a water tank on a roof isn't always noticeable from street level, this is again absurd. What tourist cares about water tanks? If you do, that sounds like some utterly boring vacations.

Quote:
Then you have a unique perspective on life, I guess. Why do you live in Chicago if you would be just as home in a city 1/100 the size? If, to you, every city is the same as long as it has buildings and streets and cars, then why travel anywhere? Why not just live in the cheapest possible place you can find in rural Mississippi or somewhere?
What in the world are you blabbering on about? I was talking about water tanks on the roofs of buildings, and you're going on about rural Mississippi?

Quote:
No, it has nothing to do with "older buildings". Garbage disposals were illegal in NYC until recently, and are generally still quite rare, because of unique plumbing/disposal issues that prevent their installation in most buildings, regardless of building age.
Like I said, I didn't know that, most people don't know that, and most don't give a damn. I haven't had one in Chicago because the buildings I've rented in have typically been older. I assumed it was the same there.

Quote:
Alleys have nothing to do with how a city smells. That doesn't even make a hint of sense. NYC doesn't smell different from any other cities in the developed world.

Based on your comments, you sound like someone who has never been to NYC, and hasn't really traveled, anywhere. You sound like your perspective on cities is based on 1980's Hollywood movies or something. Next we'll hear about giant alligators in the sewer, or fast-talking Italian gangsters named Vinnny you met in a Brooklyn pizzeria.
You must be joking. There's piles of garbage in bags on the sidewalk in Manhattan, and you don't think that impacts how it smells? An alley in Chicago won't always smell pleasant, but at least the garbage is placed in a dumpster or can. That most definitely cuts down on the smell.

As for me having been to NYC, believe what you want. I've been there 4 times since January of 2014. I even made a thread asking for advice on my first visit in the NYC page before I went.

Quote:
Yes, in fact I just made such an argument. You are the only one at C-D that seems to disagree.
That I doubt, but believe what you want.

Quote:
Could you name these "large cities"? Just one, please. Take the 10 largest U.S. city propers, and name one without a WalMart. Hell, name one without 5 built or planned WalMarts.
When did I ever say it had to be top 10? I said largest with cities with none or a small amount. Unless you now want to act like San Francisco or Boston are small backwaters, I already named them.

Quote:
Every city on earth is "full of cars and traffic". Drivers licenses have nothing to do with "cars and traffic". If driving a personal car were illegal in Manhattan, the streets would still be "full of cars and traffic" because most of the traffic consists of delivery vehicles, car services, and for hire cars (mostly cabs), not private cars (which, again, is yet another difference between NYC and every other city in the U.S.).
The streets of Manhattan had cars, the streets of Queens had cars. I don't really care about their use. Like I said though, most people don't know that that many New Yorkers don't actually know how to drive. It's one of the most traffic congested cities in the nation, so people wouldn't automatically come to that realization just by looking around that was my point.

Quote:
Now you're probably lying, as this is quite rare in Manhattan. Tell us where your friend lives. Give us the address. Let's take a look around his neighborhood, and see if this is common.
You didn't even bother to properly read my initial post in this thread. I specially said I stayed in Harlem, the Upper East Side, and Astoria on my visits. The friend who has the car lives there. I never said anything about a friend in Manhattan having a car.

Quote:
So now you're arguing that NYC isn't different because you are personally ignorant of differences that make it different? Very odd line of reasoning.

No place on earth doesn't have delivery. Your point is? Columbus, Ohio is now the same at Kinshasa or Kathmandu?
You brought up the differences, and I pointed out that I hadn't noticed them. That's all.

As for delivery, you're the one who brought it, not me. I only mentioned Gruhbub and Seamless because you tried to make it out to be a big deal.

Quote:
I have never heard of a bodega that doesn't sell alcohol. Sounds like more made-up nonsense. Why don't you give the address of this alcohol-free bodega?
It was up by 125th. We wanted vodka, they had beer. We had to go wandering to find an actual liquor store, because the grocery store we found also just sold beer and wine.

Last edited by PerseusVeil; 04-17-2015 at 06:43 PM..
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Old 04-17-2015, 07:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
San Francisco does not have any Walmarts, nor does Boston. I had originally thought that DC didn't either, but they have two. Like I said, there are other cities in this country that have either none, or just a few.
And that would prove my point. Neither SF nor Boston are among the largest cities. They have tiny city limits, which is why they don't have WalMarts. But they have tons of WalMarts in the area, NYC has none.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
It doesn't make it feel un-American, unless you think we don't have any other cities in this nation that could reasonably be described as dense.
Of course the density does make it feel un-American, as there are no other such places in the U.S. Isn't that the definition of "unique"?

No place in the U.S. comes remotely close to the density in NYC. The #2 city is closer to the #200 city than the #1 city in terms of high density geography. There a a couple of million people living in extreme high density geography in NYC, while no other city has even 1/20 the amount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
It's not just me. Unless you're coming from a small town, or a city like Los Angeles which feels entirely different, NYC isn't exactly going to be a mind blowing experience. Is it awesome? Yes? Is it different? Yes. Is it vastly larger? Yes. Do you not know what to do with yourself because it's just so different and un-American? Hardly. There are differences, but they're simply enough to adjust to.
I have no idea what you're talking about here. I never claimed NYC was "mind blowing", "awesome" or "vastly larger" (though the last point is true). That isn't even the point of this thread. I said it was "different" which is true.

And then you say "LA feels entirely different" which kind of proves the point. If LA feels entirely different than NYC, and if LA is the other major U.S. city, then obviously NYC is unique within the U.S.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
I also never said that Chicago didn't have more cars, but Chicago does have one of the best public transit systems in this country, and it's easy enough to live car free here. I do it myself.
OK, and your point is?

No American city has remotely similar transit share as NYC, yet many American cities have similar or higher transit share as Chicago, so obviously this shows NYC is unique in this respect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
Chicago has 9 Walmarts, and almost all of them are the small market variety. I'd hardly call that a ton, but obviously more than NY's 0. I believe there's one normal sized Walmart in the whole city, and it's on the West Side.
And that's kind of my point. 9 WalMarts in Chicago and more planned. No WalMarts in NYC and none planned. That makes NYC unique in the U.S. context. No other major city has no WalMarts.

Even the suburbs have few. None in the close-in urban suburbs in NJ. Only one in Westchester County, a mostly suburban county of a million people, and it's an urban WalMart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
Also not everyone in Chicago has a garbage disposal.
Thank you for that illuminating statement. Not everyone has a trachea either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
Oh please, as I said Chicago actually has a good system. Are you honestly this annoyed that I wasn't blown away by NYC's system? Ridiculous.
I have no idea what this even means. No one cares whether you were personally "blown away" by anything. The point is that NYC is different. Chicago has nothing to do with the conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
Considering a water tank on a roof isn't always noticeable from street level, this is again absurd. What tourist cares about water tanks? If you do, that sounds like some utterly boring vacations.
Wrong, water tanks are visible, are integral parts of the streetscape, and are quite obvious to anyone who actually appreciates architecture when they visit cities. Don't use your ignorance as an excuse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
What in the world are you blabbering on about? I was talking about water tanks on the roofs of buildings, and you're going on about rural Mississippi?
Wrong and wrong. You have serious trouble with reading comprehension.

You claimed that you didn't care about the relative size of a city, or the relative size of anything or anyplace. To you, everyplace was the same, as long as there are cars and houses and people. So why are you in Chicago? You would be just as happy in rural Mississippi, because it's all the same, according to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
You must be joking. There's piles of garbage in bags on the sidewalk in Manhattan, and you don't think that impacts how it smells?
And you still lack reading comprehension, or logical reasoning. You claimed that NYC smelled unique (while strangely trying to argue NYC isn't unique), and that is obviously absurd.

Where in the world are there no "piles of garbage". Please name me one city, please. Chicago has the exact same piles of garbage as in NYC. It may even be worse, as Chicago tends to have more small buildings, so the garbage is thrown right outside, rather than enclosed like in major buildings in NYC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
An alley in Chicago won't always smell pleasant, but at least the garbage is placed in a dumpster or can. That most definitely cuts down on the smell.
Apparently you're unaware of this, but "dumpsters and cans" are used around the globe, including NYC. I have never heard of a city that doesn't use garbage cans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
As for me having been to NYC, believe what you want. I've been there 4 times since January of 2014. I even made a thread asking for advice on my first visit in the NYC page before I went.
Yet you now refuse to reveal the location of this mythical apartment with parking, you refuse to reveal the location of the alcohol-free bodega, and you claim there are no garbage cans in NYC. No, you're lying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
The streets of Manhattan had cars, the streets of Queens had cars. I don't really care about their use. Like I said though, most people don't know that that many New Yorkers don't actually know how to drive. It's one of the most traffic congested cities in the nation, so people wouldn't automatically come to that realization just by looking around that was my point.
Your point is that you are personally ignorant about NYC, and personally completely ignorant about all cities on earth having cars and traffic, so NYC isn't different in terms of driving because you personally didn't know better? Pretty ridiculous argument.

If NYC, NOLA, SF, Honolulu and Miami aren't the five most unique major U.S. cities, then please give us a list. I would like to see your crazy list, because to you, every place is "the same." If someone mentions NOLA you will say "but I had gumbo in Omaha" if they say Honolulu "but there are Asians in Milwaukee" if Miami "I hear Spanish at my local WalMart too, so no", if SF "my city has hills too, and a bridge!" if NYC "yeah but other cities have buildings and people too!"
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Old 04-17-2015, 07:29 PM
 
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Geez guys . Lame you guys are arguing this on a lovely Friday evening.
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Old 04-17-2015, 07:41 PM
 
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Yeah, the people saying NYC...I don't get it. It's different than your typical Sunbelt city, but there's nothing un-American about it. In fact, NYC is probably the most American city there is. I mean, it's in tons of movies, TV shows, songs, etc.
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