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Old 04-21-2015, 01:18 PM
rah
 
Location: Oakland
3,315 posts, read 8,104,654 times
Reputation: 2508

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This is pretty dumb, because every city is free to define their own "downtown" however they want. It's all relatively arbitrary and subjective.

Philly for example, has apparently decided that "greater center city" = downtown, for planning and PR purposes. Fair enough, but one must realize that it's like someone calling the entirety of Northeastern SF "downtown", including areas like North beach, Russian Hill, etc....which together certainly has a higher population than center city, within a similar land area. The difference being, the city of SF has chosen not to define those neighboring residential areas as being within "downtown", unlike Philly.

While greater center city may be the "2nd largest downtown" when going by the definition put forth by the city of Philadelphia itself (via it's own promotional website, LOL), it may not actually be the 2nd largest downtown when you're trying to compare apples to apples. It certainly doesn't have even close to the 2nd largest amount of office space. Or 2nd largest number of highrises...so it doesn't act or look the part in those two categories. And if we were to cut off the extraneous residential bits of center city that really aren't downtown areas, these population stats of Philly's downtown would drop quite a bit.

Are we really supposed to buy that this is "downtown" Philadelphia:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9703...cO-ebN7OjA!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ce...36e1d13cf7c05b
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ce...36e1d13cf7c05b
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ce...36e1d13cf7c05b
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ce...36e1d13cf7c05b

Because that's all within center city or "greater" center city, but it sure doesn't look like "downtown" anywhere to me.

The smaller definition of center city, at around 2 square miles (vs. greater center city at 7.7 sq. miles) seems a more proper definition of "downtown" Philly....but then you get into the fact that by that definition, it undoubtedly doesn't have the 2nd largest downtown population. SF for example, has a downtown of roughly 2 square miles as well, but has around 70,000 residents living in it, vs. Philly's 57,000 (which shouldn't be surprising, seeing as SF has much higher peak density within downtown than Philly does...160,000+ vs. 60,000+).

Last edited by rah; 04-21-2015 at 01:29 PM..
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Old 04-21-2015, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,482 posts, read 10,435,117 times
Reputation: 5387
Quote:
Originally Posted by rah View Post
This is pretty dumb, because every city is free to define their own "downtown" however they want. It's all relatively arbitrary and subjective.

Philly for example, has decided that "center city" = downtown, for planning and PR purposes. Fair enough, but one must realize that it's like someone calling the entirety of Northeastern SF "downtown", including areas like North beach, Russian Hill, etc....which together certainly has a higher population than center city, within a similar land area. The difference being, the city of SF has chosen not to define those neighboring residential areas as being within "downtown", unlike Philly.
Why do some of you keep bringing up San Francisco in a "Philly vs Chicago"?
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Old 04-21-2015, 01:40 PM
rah
 
Location: Oakland
3,315 posts, read 8,104,654 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Why do some of you keep bringing up San Francisco in a "Philly vs Chicago"?
Because downtown Philly probably does not pass Chicago in downtown population. And it doesn't pass San Francisco either. And it's arguable compared to Boston as well, maybe even LA. Because Philly doesn't actually have the 2nd largest downtown, unless you're going by some hugely inflated definition as to what constitutes "downtown" Philly...AKA the "greater center city" definition, which is PR/planning BS that makes downtown Philly look more impressive than it is, and is what was posted in the OP.

Don't get me wrong, Philly is big and important, and impressive, but it's a city that's clearly not afraid to twist facts for PR purposes ("look at our own website proclaiming how big and impressive we are! Downtown/center city is 500 million square miles! Wow it's the biggest!!!! Invest in us now!!"), and there are some real deluded booster types here on City-Data who love to post and rabidly defend anything that makes Philly look more important or impressive, no matter how accurate or inaccurate it is.

edit: In case it's not clear, I brought up SF because it's yet another example (aside from Chicago) that the claim in the OP is wrong. And it's also a city I know better than Chicago, so I'm better prepared to make an argument based off of it. Also, no one ever said we're only allowed to discuss Chicago and Philly in this thread, sorry you're confused about that.
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Old 04-21-2015, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Chicago (from pittsburgh)
3,696 posts, read 4,520,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefallensrvnge View Post
How are the populations in both downtowns being measured? I mean if you drew a several mile square over both central Philly and central Chicago, I wouldn't be surprised if Philly came out a little larger. It's central business district is much smaller compared to the Loop, so Philly (which is a dense city) would incorporate more residential districts into their downtown population compared to Chicago.
This. It's really quite simple people. Take a look at office space/hotels/etc.
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Old 04-21-2015, 01:52 PM
 
Location: East Central Pennsylvania/ Chicago for 6yrs.
2,539 posts, read 2,454,478 times
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Chicago evolved to a WORLD CLASS SKYLINE and ICONIC FULLY HAVING HIT.... ALL THE BASES OF A QUINESSENCIAL AMERICAN DOWNTOWN.

SAVE CALLING OTHER CITIES AS HAS-BEENS DECLINING IN STATURE.... TO THE TROLLS.

Philly and Chicago are in many ways. Totally different cities in how it built and eras it came to its own originally. Though Philly had a planned street grid. Started by William Penn a couple hundred years ago. It maintained British style Rows Homes as standard. After its quaint Colonial era. These areas were Tight PLAIN Rows for the masses. In a era Americans wanted cheap houses one could own. Philly's solution was mass built tight Rows on narrow streets. No frontage and little in back.

Chicago rebuilt a mostly new street grid. After the "Great Chicago Fire". It did use Phillies grid.... as a start. It though did not want mostly tight Rows and no Tenements as NYC. It gained a wider street grid and added some frontage and could keep neighborhoods Tree lined. It also put in place A FULL ALLEY SYSTEM BETWEEN THE BLOCKS. But not to build cheaper houses in. A STANDARD CITY LOT BECAME 25'X125'. As the city grew. The lots grew a bit later in the 20th century.

Chicago has neighborhoods like this right by downtown. Some just north as this SHOULD BE INCLUDED AS DOWNTOWN AS THE GOLD COAST LINCOLN PARK AREA.? In my opinion.

LINCOLN PARK
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.92255,-87.655931,3a,75y,352.62h,93.28t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sTgPmLB-paFr2p9i0DNt38A!2e0

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.922475,-87.649868,3a,75y,359.68h,79.14t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s3kWw-MVB10ENWOVsnEdrHw!2e0

I'd put it up to Sought after Philly Neighborhoods by downtown Philly.

The city of Chicago had more than 50 million visitors last year, 2014. A 3 1/2% increase over 2013.
Chicago had more than 48.5 million domestic visitors last year, topping New York by more than four million. (does not include international tourist NYC excels in)

http://wgntv.com/2015/02/05/chicago-launches-new-tourism-campaign-amid-record-visitor-numbers/

IT'S NO HAS-BEEN SOME WANT TO CLAIM LOSING GROUND??
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Old 04-21-2015, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Chicago (from pittsburgh)
3,696 posts, read 4,520,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago60614 View Post
Yes, Chicago's number is at 131,000 in 2010, up from 80,000 in 1990.

Again - it's never been higher than Philly strictly downtown. Chicago has around 550,000 office workers downtown compared to Philly's 293,000. Chicago has always had downtown be much more of an employment and business center than any sort of center for living. That's only been happening recently.

Total housing units downtown:
1991: 49,000
1994: 50,000 +2%
1997: 52,000 +4%
2000: 59,000 +13%
2003: 74,000 +25%
2006: 86,000 +16%
2009: 103,000 +20%
2012: 107,000 +4%
2015: 119,000 +11%

Whoever created this thread got a little too excited, lol. Rolling my eyes about all the "wow, Chicago is really falling behind" posts. Taking one area the city is actually doing great at and spinning it around as if it's somehow a negative.
I am honestly blown away that this hasn't been realized pages ago...
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,482 posts, read 10,435,117 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago60614 View Post
Whoever created this thread got a little too excited, lol. Rolling my eyes about all the "wow, Chicago is really falling behind" posts. Taking one area the city is actually doing great at and spinning it around as if it's somehow a negative.
It's not about Chicago falling behind but more of Philly doing well. After reading all these pages it's clearly obvious that some can't give Philly credit for anything. I wish more people realized that Philly has changed a lot since the 1970's. smh
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,200 posts, read 26,142,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
It's not about Chicago falling behind but more of Philly doing well. After reading all these pages it's clearly obvious that some can't give Philly credit for anything. I wish more people realized that Philly has changed a lot since the 1970's. smh
So how many people live in that area that people in Philadelphia know as Downtown?
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:11 PM
 
Location: East Central Pennsylvania/ Chicago for 6yrs.
2,539 posts, read 2,454,478 times
Reputation: 1483
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
It's not about Chicago falling behind but more of Philly doing well. After reading all these pages it's clearly obvious that some can't give Philly credit for anything. I wish more people realized that Philly has changed a lot since the 1970's. smh
We read the post... we saw the claims CHICAGO IS FALLING BEHIND. No its Downtown is not. More so than ever????
Its downtown was not a residential area for most of its history. IT IS TODAY.

Chicago as the metro area with the largest numeric increase in “downtown” population between 2000 and 2010.
For purposes of the report, the Census Bureau defined “downtown” as the area within a 2-mile radius of the location of the city hall in the principal city in a metropolitan area.

Chicago’s downtown population grew from 133,426 to 181,714, an increase of 48,288 or 36.2%. New York came in second with a population increase of 37,422, followed by Philadelphia, San Francisco and Washington, DC. Chicago had largest downtown population growth from 2000 to 2010

Condo and Apt. Construction numbers are rising again as the crash hit hard. Hotel construction is booming. A sign of future expectations.

These two cities are in many ways? Very different. From what their Downtowns are and mean and represent? To its VERY different styles of neighborhoods and layout.
CHICAGO ALSO DOES NOT COUNT ITS HIGH DENSITY GOLD COAST OR REGULAR NEIGHBORHOODS as Downtown. PHILLY DOES BECAUSE IT WAS FOR NEARLY 200YEARS. If it counted the Gold Coast to Lincoln Park? It would SKYROCKET. I SAY IT 'S TIME IT DID. SURE LOOKS LIKE PART OF A DOWNTOWN.
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,482 posts, read 10,435,117 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
So how many people live in that area that people in Philadelphia know as Downtown?
I already provided the numbers in the previous pages.
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