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Old 06-22-2017, 01:58 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,252 posts, read 2,455,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago60614 View Post
What populations are we talking about?

Chicago's population of the downtown area, essentially areas within 1-2 miles of city hall, in the highrise district that any normal person would say was "downtown" has grown quite a bit:

Per the census bureau using census tracts:
2000: 151,628
2010: 195,836 (+44,208)
2015: 238,259 (+42,423)

+57% growth in 15 years.
These numbers seem vastly inflated. I don't know how they were calculated, but they probably used the same BS concept of "greater downtown" as for Philly.

The areas that I think "any normal person would say was downtown" are:

(1) the Loop and most of NNS
and
(2) small sections of NWS, and (maybe) NSS and West Town.

Even if you count all of NNS (and you really shouldn't -- I mean does anyone consider Old Town or the Clybourn corridor to be downtown?) you get 119k for bucket (1), based on 2015 pop estimates.

Then for bucket (2) I don't know what the accurate figure is, but there is no way on earth you get anywhere close to another 120k in the slivers of West Loop, South Loop and West Town that look anything like downtown.

It's true that all these areas have experienced impressive growth since 2000 but you are fooling yourself if you think that the "highrise district" of downtown Chicago has anything close to 238k population. Maybe it's around half that.
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Old 06-22-2017, 02:15 PM
 
2,324 posts, read 1,075,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
These numbers seem vastly inflated. I don't know how they were calculated, but they probably used the same BS concept of "greater downtown" as for Philly.

The areas that I think "any normal person would say was downtown" are:

(1) the Loop and most of NNS
and
(2) small sections of NWS, and (maybe) NSS and West Town.

Even if you count all of NNS (and you really shouldn't -- I mean does anyone consider Old Town or the Clybourn corridor to be downtown?) you get 119k for bucket (1), based on 2015 pop estimates.

Then for bucket (2) I don't know what the accurate figure is, but there is no way on earth you get anywhere close to another 120k in the slivers of West Loop, South Loop and West Town that look anything like downtown.

It's true that all these areas have experienced impressive growth since 2000 but you are fooling yourself if you think that the "highrise district" of downtown Chicago has anything close to 238k population. Maybe it's around half that.
This post from a past forum is more accurate I'd say from this same poster. Depends on neighborhoods that get included. Real Estate sights use a Downtown Core by Zip Codes and it is more a Greater CBD for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago60614 View Post
Chicago's general downtown, from the Near North side through the Loop and the South Loop and then sections of West Town over to around Ashland.

1990: 94,624
2000: 113,801
2010: 161,367
2015: 183,848

College Students: 70,000

Hotel Rooms: 42,000 in 130 hotels

Jobs: 574,217

Nearly 275,000 people cross the loop bridges across the Chicago River each weekday.

This area covers a little over 8 square miles, including the downtown core (loop) and lakefront parks as well as the museum campus and McCormick place.

The loop itself has around 300,000 jobs in one square mile.
Just adding Lincoln Park goes over the $200,000 mark and especially Lakeview. I DON'T THINK you need 8-sq/miles to surpass $200,000 as said in that post.
But as I said .... Just using a 2-mile radius of City Hall is unfair to Chicago actually if a good portion is parks and harbor.

Real Estate link for Downtown Chicago by zip codes. It goes for them. Chinatown thru Old Town.

https://www.point2homes.com/US/Neigh...ographics.html

Downtown Chicago is an area in Downtown Chicago, with a population of 201,893 (Link claims 2014 numbers). aggregated from data for the following zip codes: 60654, 60661, 60601, 60602, 60603, 60604, 60605, 60606, 60607, 60610, 60611, 60616.

Loop, River North, New East Side, Near West Side, Near North Side with Old Town, New South Side, with Chinatown, Streeterville,

Last edited by DavePa; 06-22-2017 at 02:52 PM..
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Old 06-22-2017, 02:38 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,175 posts, read 21,776,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
This post from a past forum is more accurate I'd say from this same poster. Depends on neighborhoods that get included. Real Estate sights use a Downtown Core by Zip Codes and it is more a Greater CBD for sure.


Just adding Lincoln Park goes over the $200,000 mark and especially Lakeview. I DON'T THINK you need 8-sq/miles to surpass $200,000 as said in that post.
But as I said .... Just using a 2-mile radius of City Hall is unfair to Chicago actually if a good portion is parks and harbor.

Real Estate link for Downtown Chicago by zip codes. It goes for them. Chinatown thru Old Town.

https://www.point2homes.com/US/Neigh...ographics.html

Downtown Chicago is an area in Downtown Chicago, with a population of 201,893 (Link claims 2014 numbers). aggregated from data for the following zip codes: 60654, 60661, 60601, 60602, 60603, 60604, 60605, 60606, 60607, 60610, 60611, 60616.
I think if you read Fitzrovian's post, the stats you're posting don't disagree with his notion. Citing a post that takes downtown westwards to Ashland and including Old Town and Chinatown among other places isn't quite downtown anymore and I'm not sure how it can be construed that way.

I agree with the general notion that going by a radius to city hall isn't great because of vastly varying geography of cities.

As for trying to make an apples to apples comparison for downtown population, I think it's likely that it can possibly favor Philadelphia at the moment simply because of how mixed-use it's been and the relatively recent population boom in the Loop and the bits of West Loop, River North, and Streeterville which can reasonably be called part of downtown Chicago. I think with the amount of construction that's happening in those areas though compared to Center City, it's also quite likely Chicago's downtown population will become larger than Center City's in the near future if it hasn't passed it already.
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Old 06-22-2017, 02:44 PM
 
2,324 posts, read 1,075,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I think if you read Fitzrovian's post, the stats you're posting don't disagree with his notion. Citing a post that takes downtown westwards to Ashland and including Old Town and Chinatown among other places isn't quite downtown anymore and I'm not sure how it can be construed that way.

I agree with the general notion that going by a radius to city hall isn't great because of vastly varying geography of cities.

As for trying to make an apples to apples comparison for downtown population, I think it's likely that it can possibly favor Philadelphia at the moment simply because of how mixed-use it's been and the relatively recent population boom in the Loop and the bits of West Loop, River North, and Streeterville which can reasonably be called part of downtown Chicago. I think with the amount of construction that's happening in those areas though compared to Center City, it's also quite likely Chicago's downtown population will become larger than Center City's in the near future if it hasn't passed it already.
I went through the zips of the Real Estate link. I added.

Real Estate link for Downtown Chicago by zip codes. It goes for them. Chinatown thru Old Town.

https://www.point2homes.com/US/Neigh...ographics.html

Downtown Chicago is an area in Downtown Chicago, with a population of 201,893 (Link claims 2014 numbers). aggregated from data for the following zip codes: 60654, 60661, 60601, 60602, 60603, 60604, 60605, 60606, 60607, 60610, 60611, 60616.

Loop, River North, Streeterville, New East Side, Near West Side, Near North Side with Old Town, Near South Side with Chinatown,

This clearly is fair to me. Only stretch is to include Chinatown yet perhaps? Near South Side yes. Philly surely has a Greater Center City too that most would count today. Adding and taking one neighborhood? Changes stats.

Though Chicago defines its own CBD. It has some neighborhoods and zip codes only partially used. That makes population of only in that border difficult? City of Chicago link below.

https://data.cityofchicago.org/Facil...rict/tksj-nvsw

Last edited by DavePa; 06-22-2017 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 06-22-2017, 02:59 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,175 posts, read 21,776,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
I went through the zips of the Real Estate link. I added.

Real Estate link for Downtown Chicago by zip codes. It goes for them. Chinatown thru Old Town.

https://www.point2homes.com/US/Neigh...ographics.html

Downtown Chicago is an area in Downtown Chicago, with a population of 201,893 (Link claims 2014 numbers). aggregated from data for the following zip codes: 60654, 60661, 60601, 60602, 60603, 60604, 60605, 60606, 60607, 60610, 60611, 60616.

Loop, River North, Streeterville, New East Side, Near West Side, Near North Side with Old Town, Near South Side with Chinatown,

This clearly is fair to me. Only stretch is to include Chinatown yet perhaps? Near South Side yes. Philly surely has a Greater Center City too that most would count today.
Okay, sure, then you have to define greater Center City and come up with a criteria for all of that if you want to make an actual comparison.

All of Near South South, Near West Side, and Near North Side is a very generous idea of downtown in my view and I believe Fitzrovian agrees with that. If you have a different definition, then by all means. Try to define it and figure out the Philadelphia equivalent based on your criteria.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:10 PM
 
2,324 posts, read 1,075,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Okay, sure, then you have to define greater Center City and come up with a criteria for all of that if you want to make an actual comparison.

All of Near South South, Near West Side, and Near North Side is a very generous idea of downtown in my view and I believe Fitzrovian agrees with that. If you have a different definition, then by all means. Try to define it and figure out the Philadelphia equivalent based on your criteria.
I give up LOL your turn to give stats. I added the city of Chicago's CBD defined by it. If you define population in them borders.....

https://data.cityofchicago.org/Facil...rict/tksj-nvsw

If You say Philly wins here? Then you can say it. I just maintain it has Grant/Millennium Parks and Monroe Harbor in its 2-miles. Maybe University City into even Fishtown is a valid CBD too? I just gave other stats, links and if you read back pages in this thread? Many refuted that this claim of Philly passing Chicago was true and why.

I'd rather hear why it is a true CBD for a Greater CC vs. Chicago's official defining its own by the city I gave the link? Also 2020 any official 2- miles stats will come out. THEN THIS THREAD CAN BE RESSURECTED.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:32 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,252 posts, read 2,455,062 times
Reputation: 1554
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Okay, sure, then you have to define greater Center City and come up with a criteria for all of that if you want to make an actual comparison.

All of Near South South, Near West Side, and Near North Side is a very generous idea of downtown in my view and I believe Fitzrovian agrees with that. If you have a different definition, then by all means. Try to define it and figure out the Philadelphia equivalent based on your criteria.
Exactly. The City of Chicago can call whatever it wants its CBD -- and that's fine -- but if we are doing a comparative analysis of CvC, the question becomes is it apples to apples?

If you are gonna include all of NNS, NSS and NWS, then it's very disingenuous to call it "the highrise district" of downtown Chicago. Everyone knows that it includes vast areas that look and function nothing like a downtown. If you do that for Philly then you should include all of South Philly, everything north through Fishtown and everything west to Spruce Hill. I am pretty sure you would get a very high figure if you do that but then the concept of "downtown population" becomes totally meaningless. It just becomes a competition in who can draw a larger circle and against all reason call it "downtown".
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:47 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,175 posts, read 21,776,227 times
Reputation: 10258
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
I give up LOL your turn to give stats. I added the city of Chicago's CBD defined by it. If you define population in them borders.....

https://data.cityofchicago.org/Facil...rict/tksj-nvsw

If You say Philly wins here? Then you can say it. I just maintain it has Grant/Millennium Parks and Monroe Harbor in its 2-miles. Maybe University City into even Fishtown is a valid CBD too? I just gave other stats, links and if you read back pages in this thread? Many refuted that this claim of Philly passing Chicago was true and why.

I'd rather hear why it is a true CBD for a Greater CC vs. Chicago's official defining its own by the city I gave the link? Also 2020 any official 2- miles stats will come out. THEN THIS THREAD CAN BE RESSURECTED.
See, that link is a pretty reasonable downtown right there. I think the only thing off would be the parts west of the river and south of Tilden, but that adds little in population anyhow.

If you go by that and then compare Center City and parts of the eastern tips of University City, then you got a stew going.
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Old 06-22-2017, 06:06 PM
 
3,605 posts, read 2,029,744 times
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This just keeps coming up. A department of the City of Chicago defined the CBD for its own purposes only. There's no "official" version with this stuff. That's a false idea held by some in the enthusiast community only.

Also a CBD is typically just the highrise office tower core, not the larger area that's often considered "downtown."
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Old 06-22-2017, 06:39 PM
 
2,324 posts, read 1,075,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
See, that link is a pretty reasonable downtown right there. I think the only thing off would be the parts west of the river and south of Tilden, but that adds little in population anyhow.

If you go by that and then compare Center City and parts of the eastern tips of University City, then you got a stew going.
If Chicago claims it officially? It's CBD as its downtown. It is more then reasonable? Its official. What is Philly's official CBD then? CC? The Greater CC?
You're still giving a arbitrary boundary of what? A CBD, Downtown, Greater CC? I know the Greater CC was Girard Ave on the north to Taskar St in the south. It did not include UC? Now we keep getting a Greater CC of sorts that include UC too? Yet any Chicago one is denied as too much not a downtown?
If Philly has a city OFFICIAL CBD as Chicago's? If CC? Or more then that into UC? Or that Greater CC Girard to Tasker? I don't know of it.

Seems any stew mentioned for Chicago is DOA? At least we have a official CBD the city defines. For Philly ... I still do not know what the official CBD is? CC of Greater CC? Of one with some UC too?

Otherwise your making a stew that is un-official vs one foe Chicago that is official.

The problem with lines with just streets as boundaries? Population stats are by neighborhood and zip code. You split them? How do you get a population? Even Chicago's CBD splits neighborhoods and zip codes.

This is the LATEST for populations of Chicago and core. It lines up with ID "Chicago60614" posted numbers YOU REFUTED as too large a area for one.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/artic...sides-plummets

What it says:

- Chicago's central area gained an estimated 42,423 people in 2010-2015, according to the survey.
- growth has hit the gas, with the area—roughly the Loop, plus the Near North, Near South and Near West sides—growing almost as much in five years as it did in the previous 10.
- The area now is home to an estimated 238,259 residents. That's enough to make it the second largest city in Illinois, if it were counted by itself.

I gave this Real Estate link giving a Chicago Downtown population by zip codes given in 2014 at a population of 201,893. You said again? To Big a area....

Then there is this link giving the OFFICIAL census 2-mile radius population and gain last decade in 2010. As Chicago’s downtown population grew from 133,426 to 181,714, an increase of 48,288 or 36.2%. This is in the 2-mile radius by the census.

Chicago had largest downtown population growth from 2000 to 2010 – YoChicago

Another link in trying to define downtowns and problem....

https://www.citylab.com/life/2013/10...downtown/7144/

Maybe you have a link to your Greater CC Core? With populations and growths? The official 2-mile radius? A Greater CC or your boundaries?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays25 View Post
This just keeps coming up. A department of the City of Chicago defined the CBD for its own purposes only. There's no "official" version with this stuff. That's a false idea held by some in the enthusiast community only.

Also a CBD is typically just the highrise office tower core, not the larger area that's often considered "downtown."
I agree. But even here they claimed the OFFICIAL Chicago city CBD (they specifically call it that) some here said it was STILL A BIT TOO BIG. ...

this thread began with a greater then 2-mile radius for a Philly win. That was as you said totally refuted as enlarged.

I say let others give their Greater CC stats and links. Of a Real Estate link defining Philly's downtown by Zip Codes as I give one for Chicago.

So I still see Chicago has the #2 Core, downtown, CBD. Population and other reasons. I DO NOT Lessen Philly's booming Core either in restorations. Just I DO NOT see justification Chicago is not #2.

Last edited by DavePa; 06-22-2017 at 06:49 PM..
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