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Old 06-22-2017, 09:12 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,240 posts, read 21,824,877 times
Reputation: 10303

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
If Chicago claims it officially? It's CBD as its downtown. It is more then reasonable? Its official. What is Philly's official CBD then? CC? The Greater CC?
You're still giving a arbitrary boundary of what? A CBD, Downtown, Greater CC? I know the Greater CC was Girard Ave on the north to Taskar St in the south. It did not include UC? Now we keep getting a Greater CC of sorts that include UC too? Yet any Chicago one is denied as too much not a downtown?
If Philly has a city OFFICIAL CBD as Chicago's? If CC? Or more then that into UC? Or that Greater CC Girard to Tasker? I don't know of it.

Seems any stew mentioned for Chicago is DOA? At least we have a official CBD the city defines. For Philly ... I still do not know what the official CBD is? CC of Greater CC? Of one with some UC too?

Otherwise your making a stew that is un-official vs one foe Chicago that is official.

The problem with lines with just streets as boundaries? Population stats are by neighborhood and zip code. You split them? How do you get a population? Even Chicago's CBD splits neighborhoods and zip codes.

This is the LATEST for populations of Chicago and core. It lines up with ID "Chicago60614" posted numbers YOU REFUTED as too large a area for one.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/artic...sides-plummets

What it says:

- Chicago's central area gained an estimated 42,423 people in 2010-2015, according to the survey.
- growth has hit the gas, with the area—roughly the Loop, plus the Near North, Near South and Near West sides—growing almost as much in five years as it did in the previous 10.
- The area now is home to an estimated 238,259 residents. That's enough to make it the second largest city in Illinois, if it were counted by itself.

I gave this Real Estate link giving a Chicago Downtown population by zip codes given in 2014 at a population of 201,893. You said again? To Big a area....

Then there is this link giving the OFFICIAL census 2-mile radius population and gain last decade in 2010. As Chicago’s downtown population grew from 133,426 to 181,714, an increase of 48,288 or 36.2%. This is in the 2-mile radius by the census.

Chicago had largest downtown population growth from 2000 to 2010 – YoChicago

Another link in trying to define downtowns and problem....

https://www.citylab.com/life/2013/10...downtown/7144/

Maybe you have a link to your Greater CC Core? With populations and growths? The official 2-mile radius? A Greater CC or your boundaries?

I agree. But even here they claimed the OFFICIAL Chicago city CBD (they specifically call it that) some here said it was STILL A BIT TOO BIG. ...

this thread began with a greater then 2-mile radius for a Philly win. That was as you said totally refuted as enlarged.

I say let others give their Greater CC stats and links. Of a Real Estate link defining Philly's downtown by Zip Codes as I give one for Chicago.

So I still see Chicago has the #2 Core, downtown, CBD. Population and other reasons. I DO NOT Lessen Philly's booming Core either in restorations. Just I DO NOT see justification Chicago is not #2.
What are you going on about? I said the link you had with the loop, river north, streeterville and a bit of the west loop a few blocks west of the river seemed really reasonable.
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:14 AM
 
11,023 posts, read 21,612,905 times
Reputation: 10654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
These numbers seem vastly inflated. I don't know how they were calculated, but they probably used the same BS concept of "greater downtown" as for Philly.

The areas that I think "any normal person would say was downtown" are:

(1) the Loop and most of NNS
and
(2) small sections of NWS, and (maybe) NSS and West Town.

Even if you count all of NNS (and you really shouldn't -- I mean does anyone consider Old Town or the Clybourn corridor to be downtown?) you get 119k for bucket (1), based on 2015 pop estimates.

Then for bucket (2) I don't know what the accurate figure is, but there is no way on earth you get anywhere close to another 120k in the slivers of West Loop, South Loop and West Town that look anything like downtown.

It's true that all these areas have experienced impressive growth since 2000 but you are fooling yourself if you think that the "highrise district" of downtown Chicago has anything close to 238k population. Maybe it's around half that.
They weren't my numbers, it was from an American Community Survey (census bureau) on Chicago's central area population, greater downtown. "Downtown" can be defined 1,000 different ways I suppose.

If I look at actual census tracts and only include things south of Division, north of McCormick and east of Orleans above the river and including the first sections of tracts west of the river (that's certainly "downtown" to most everyone even though it's technically the West Loop neighborhood) then you get:

2000: 86,223
2010: 118,638

There have been 30,000 housing units built in the city since 2010, and a large majority of them are in the downtown area overall. I would expect that population to increase to around 133,000 or so by 2015.

Much of that area of course is the entire business district of the loop and retail/entertainment district.

If you bring it in even more compact and only look at areas east of the Kennedy, north of Roosevelt and south of Chicago ave (east of Orleans):

2000: 27,972
2010: 52,251

A majority of this area of course is buildings for hundreds of thousands of office workers, all the government buildings and the retail and entertainment areas. I'm actually surprised how many people live there.
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:20 AM
 
1,564 posts, read 1,014,686 times
Reputation: 496
Chicago is losing population period !!!

Houston may even surpass it as the 3rd largest city in a few years.

Now Downtown Chicago is still arguably the best in America because NYC downtown is Lower Manhattan but Philly has always been a heavyweight as one of the top u.s cities.
Congrats
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:22 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,240 posts, read 21,824,877 times
Reputation: 10303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago60614 View Post
They weren't my numbers, it was from an American Community Survey (census bureau) on Chicago's central area population, greater downtown. "Downtown" can be defined 1,000 different ways I suppose.

If I look at actual census tracts and only include things south of Division, north of McCormick and east of Orleans above the river and including the first sections of tracts west of the river (that's certainly "downtown" to most everyone even though it's technically the West Loop neighborhood) then you get:

2000: 86,223
2010: 118,638

There have been 30,000 housing units built in the city since 2010, and a large majority of them are in the downtown area overall. I would expect that population to increase to around 133,000 or so by 2015.

Much of that area of course is the entire business district of the loop and retail/entertainment district.

If you bring it in even more compact and only look at areas east of the Kennedy, north of Roosevelt and south of Chicago ave (east of Orleans):

2000: 27,972
2010: 52,251

A majority of this area of course is buildings for hundreds of thousands of office workers, all the government buildings and the retail and entertainment areas. I'm actually surprised how many people live there.
The population growth in and around the Loop is pretty crazy. I think if there were any apples to apples comparison for downtown populations between the two, Philadelphia might have the lead in some measures and almost certainly had it before, but if that lead hasn't already passed to Chicago now, then it's almost certainly going to in the near future.

I'm curious though, are they setting up grocery stores and new schools and the like in the Loop and immediate area now? I took a search around and it looks like they definitely got the grocery stores part covered.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-23-2017 at 10:33 AM..
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:33 AM
 
11,023 posts, read 21,612,905 times
Reputation: 10654
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
The population growth in and around the Loop is pretty crazy. I think if there were any apples to apples comparison for downtown populations between the two, Philadelphia might have the lead in some measures and almost certainly had it before, but if that lead hasn't already passed to Chicago now, then it's almost certainly going to in the near future.

I'm curious though, are they setting up grocery stores and new schools and the like in the Loop and immediate area now?
Schools I'm not sure because most people are young couples or singles, people fresh out of college. Not really families moving in, although there certainly are some.

It's mostly tons of restaurants moving in and then they're opening multiple food halls, movie theatre, shops, etc as far as retail.

They've opened a Marianos (large full service upscale supermarket) in Lakeshore East as well as along Halsted by the Kennedy, there's a huge Jewel in a highrise that opened along Des Plaines just west of the Loop, a Whole Foods and Jewel along Roosevelt, and in River North multiple Whole Foods, a new Plum Market and some Jewel stores.

There isn't a full service supermarket directly in the heart of the Loop, although they did open a Target store within the past few years in one of the old legacy department stores spaces on State Street.
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:14 AM
 
9,701 posts, read 6,701,737 times
Reputation: 9782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe25 View Post
Chicago is losing population period !!!

Houston may even surpass it as the 3rd largest city in a few years.

Now Downtown Chicago is still arguably the best in America because NYC downtown is Lower Manhattan but Philly has always been a heavyweight as one of the top u.s cities.
Congrats
This is all ridiculous. First, downtown Chicago isn't losing population, Chicago overall is losing population. One has nothing to do with the other.

Second, downtown Chicago can't hold a candle to downtown NYC, and obviously Lower Manhattan is just a tiny proportion (maybe 10-15%) of the NYC core.
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:19 AM
 
9,701 posts, read 6,701,737 times
Reputation: 9782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
These numbers seem vastly inflated. I don't know how they were calculated, but they probably used the same BS concept of "greater downtown" as for Philly.

The areas that I think "any normal person would say was downtown" are:

(1) the Loop and most of NNS
and
(2) small sections of NWS, and (maybe) NSS and West Town.
This. You've detailed a reasonable description of downtown Chicago. Basically North Ave. to Roosevelt Rd. and maybe west to the Kennedy or thereabouts, depending on location.

Somewhere like Lincoln Park or even Old Town does not feel "downtown" or even "core". Most of the blocks are quiet, residential, with front and back lawns. It's neighborhood-y, not really downtown-y feeling.

A Philly equivalent to Lincoln Park would be somewhere central, but not core. Maybe a nicer area in South or West Philly, but walking distance to Center City. A NYC equivalent would be something like Park Slope. Urban, but definitely not core.
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:48 AM
 
2,346 posts, read 1,084,969 times
Reputation: 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
The population growth in and around the Loop is pretty crazy. I think if there were any apples to apples comparison for downtown populations between the two, Philadelphia might have the lead in some measures and almost certainly had it before, but if that lead hasn't already passed to Chicago now, then it's almost certainly going to in the near future.

I'm curious though, are they setting up grocery stores and new schools and the like in the Loop and immediate area now? I took a search around and it looks like they definitely got the grocery stores part covered.
Trader Joe's - downtown and near. South Loop , River North, Lincoln Park,

http://www.city-data.com/locations/T...-Illinois.html

Whole Food's - downtown and near. South Loop, Gold Coast, Lakeview, Boystown/Lakeview

http://www.city-data.com/locations/W...-Illinois.html

MARIANO'S Chicago downtown, just west of the Loop and in the New East Side lumped with the Loop
and Bronzeville further south outside the core are.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/marianos-west-loop-chicago
https://www.yelp.com/biz/marianos-la...e-east-chicago
https://www.yelp.com/biz/marianos-chicago-26
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
This. You've detailed a reasonable description of downtown Chicago. Basically North Ave. to Roosevelt Rd. and maybe west to the Kennedy or thereabouts, depending on location.

Somewhere like Lincoln Park or even Old Town does not feel "downtown" or even "core". Most of the blocks are quiet, residential, with front and back lawns. It's neighborhood-y, not really downtown-y feeling.

A Philly equivalent to Lincoln Park would be somewhere central, but not core. Maybe a nicer area in South or West Philly, but walking distance to Center City. A NYC equivalent would be something like Park Slope. Urban, but definitely not core.
Philly has its quint Colonial neighborhoods that certainly doesn't say Big city core either. But get counted.
To ARGUE ---> Chicago can't even get Old Town and the Gold Coast even? Gets me wondering why? Surely not because they are residential? With those making up Philly's core as all residential without high-rises.

Really does Society Hill feel downtown? For Chicago IT MUST LOOK DOWNTOWN? For Philly it doesn't? No one is arguing Manhattan's level. It too has its tenement neighborhoods included. NOT ASKING FOR A MANHATTAN addition here. You got your "NYC the Greatest boast in". It's all good now. .

Since you gave your downtown Chicago boundary..... are you not going to give us your Philly downtown boundary? ?
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:12 PM
 
1,564 posts, read 1,014,686 times
Reputation: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
This is all ridiculous. First, downtown Chicago isn't losing population, Chicago overall is losing population. One has nothing to do with the other.

Second, downtown Chicago can't hold a candle to downtown NYC, and obviously Lower Manhattan is just a tiny proportion (maybe 10-15%) of the NYC core.

I never said Downtown Chicago was losing population, i said Chicago is losing population period.

Second,i dont include Midtown as Downtown NYC.
Downtown New York vs Lower Manhattan
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:17 PM
 
9,701 posts, read 6,701,737 times
Reputation: 9782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe25 View Post
I never said Downtown Chicago was losing population, i said Chicago is losing population period.
Which is completely irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe25 View Post
Second,i dont include Midtown as Downtown NYC.
Downtown New York vs Lower Manhattan
You're welcome to think whatever you want. You can claim that "downtown" NYC is in Thailand, for all I care.

But the fact is that "downtown" NYC, in the U.S. context, is basically Manhattan. "Downtown" in the NYC context is a directional and doesn't have anything to do with the city core.

When I go home from work, from Manhattan to Brooklyn, I'm heading "downtown". It doesn't actually mean I'm heading to the city center. And I don't travel anywhere near Lower Manhattan.
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