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View Poll Results: Its in the thread title
Koreatown 31 63.27%
Columbia Heights 18 36.73%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 04-23-2015, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,087 posts, read 12,579,873 times
Reputation: 3941

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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonelitist View Post
Maybe I've been the wrong times of the day, I haven't seen busy sidewalks. And purely residential means nothing in a super dense walk-friendly urban environment. I think you'd be hard pressed to find streets in NYC or SF with no commercial...DC less so to this extent, but in 50k+ ppsm, yes, I'd expect to see commercial on every street, not just Wilshire Blvd or Vermont or 8th. My neighborhood of 54k ppsm as of 2010 has a commercial street every block running one direction and "residential streets" running the other, however, there are corner stores and small service businesses and ground floor laundromats on the residential streets, on every block.

And look and feel has A LOT to do with it. Coincidentally, the cities in America that look more like vacation towns have less walkers and less transit.

Having wide landscaped curbs and landscaping around the doorway to me is a sign that those areas are looked at more than used (by walkers). Walkers litter and throw cigarette butts on the ground (just a human error/fact). Pretty landscaping everywhere is not conducive to that (not to mention CA drought and maintenance factor). It has more the look and feel of "I'll be there in a bit, I need to go down to get the car" rather than "I'm going to come down to meet you".
Simply not true at all. How I am more familiar with SF than you? Clay Street, right next to Pacific Heights:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7904...qcm8yw_dEQ!2e0

Crossing Fillmore there is retail:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7907...wwUP4Rp-Zw!2e0

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7900...Zb4iA3btXw!2e0

Even a big street like Divisidero is purely residential:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7897...bdWbpT9ktg!2e0

More parking garages and curb cuts than in K-Town because of the attached housing vs. apartment buildings.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7895...L7Ku5BWdGg!2e0

This was the first street I picked after I identified a ~50k ppsm neighborhood in SF. The streets that run parellel to Clay Street are almost identical, though I think I saw a boutique on one street.

And DC, particularly in Columbia Heights, there are even more purely residential streets.
Nothing wrong with that at all, that is the way most cities are built (Chicago is this way too, and even large parts of NYC).

I think in K-Town, despite the worse walking conditions, has much more retail and amenities in close walking distance due to the strictly adhered grid of commercial streets.
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Old 04-23-2015, 12:29 PM
 
1,353 posts, read 1,137,967 times
Reputation: 790
We are comparing 50k ppsm and greater density neighborhoods here. You chose one, according to you, however, the areas you chose are actually in Census Tracts of 20-30k ppsm and are in the most upscale area of town, generally speaking (Pacific Heights - in fact your spot for Clay is at a park corner where $10mm homes and a co-op with one unit per floor overlook a fancy park).

Clay St is my bus route, I think I'm more familiar with it than you. There are corner stores and laundromats along Clay, and even in Pac Heights.

Divisadero is in a much less dense area (20-30k ppsm) and we are comparing to the 50k ppsm density that defines a large area in Koreatown (with peaks of 90k ppsm). However, that being said, aside from maybe 4 blocks in Pacific Heights with single family homes (of course in the $5mm+++ range), Divis is a major commercial street, so I think you're truly not familiar.

It's like a more car oriented, less upscale version of Fillmore, where there is a 4 block stretch "on the hill" in Pac Heights with mansions, but it's commercial/apartments otherwise.


You have to get east of Van Ness to get to a neighborhood that is comparable in density to Koreatown. Also, why compare Pac Heights to Koreatown. That's comparing SF's wealthiest area to one of LA's poorest. Even still, while you clearly handpicked the hell out of those shots, including TWO IN THE HEART OF THE WEALTHIEST PART OF PACIFIC HEIGHTS WITH HOUSES/APARTMENTS overlooking a PARK, AND AN AREA WITH FAR LESS DENSITY AND probably the highest rate of car ownership in the entire city of SF (versus Koreatown, which has the lowest rate of car ownership in the entire city of LA), there are STILL MORE BITS OF COMMERCIAL there.

LoL

The look and feel, still, of those hand-picked screen shots still screams walkable to me more than anything I have yet to see in Koreatown. I have yet to see much of CH at all, though on paper there are more walkers there.
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Old 04-23-2015, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,087 posts, read 12,579,873 times
Reputation: 3941
No need to get heated. Or go into all that much more in-depth as SF has nothing to do with this.

There is no way you are going to convince me that even in its most dense areas, there are not any strictly residential streets in San Francisco. It is totally normal and says nothing about how urban a city is. Even Manhattan has some residential only streets.

Columbia Heights most certainly has residential only streets (with a smattering of corner stores and things like that) just like Koreatown does.

It also looks like some areas of Columbia Heights have nice set backs too:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9277...WwjW0CdGWA!2e0

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9267...QTV2YORhiw!2e0

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9257...rYfrSLkYdA!2e0

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9247...siPrCpA3PA!2e0

I like it, Columbia Heights seems like a beautiful neighborhood.
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Old 04-23-2015, 12:47 PM
 
1,353 posts, read 1,137,967 times
Reputation: 790
^^^I think you're confusing residential-only blocks with residential-only streets. Yes, if there is a quarter mile or half mile stretch of a street in an urban area with higher density, then yes, that is akin to a residential only street. But my point is that when you get to urban areas that are 50k ppsm or greater in density, it gets very very difficult if not impossible to find a stretch of street that long without active commercial uses. I still say it's actually impossible in NYC, SF, Boston, etc. These cities are very very highly mixed use and conducive to a car free/walkable lifestyle. DC too it seems since that many more people are walking/taking transit than in Koreatown, even if DC isn't quite as dense.

I get that LA's job centers are scattered, but so are many cities, especially those in the west (SF included). How can a neighborhood that close to downtown (a rather large downtown) with subway access, a grid, and 50k++ppsm density still be as autocentric as it is?

To me I think that indicates that Koreatown, while dense and vibrant, is not as traditionally urban as its counterparts in other cities.
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Old 04-23-2015, 12:56 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
15,404 posts, read 24,408,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
It also looks like some areas of Columbia Heights have nice set backs too:
Chicago is a lot like this too with the setbacks and landscaped sidewalks, partly why it reminds me of LA away from the Loop/River North areas.
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Old 04-23-2015, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,087 posts, read 12,579,873 times
Reputation: 3941
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonelitist View Post
^^^I think you're confusing residential-only blocks with residential-only streets. Yes, if there is a quarter mile or half mile stretch of a street in an urban area with higher density, then yes, that is akin to a residential only street. But my point is that when you get to urban areas that are 50k ppsm or greater in density, it gets very very difficult if not impossible to find a stretch of street that long without active commercial uses. I still say it's actually impossible in NYC, SF, Boston, etc. These cities are very very highly mixed use and conducive to a car free/walkable lifestyle. DC too it seems since that many more people are walking/taking transit than in Koreatown, even if DC isn't quite as dense.

I get that LA's job centers are scattered, but so are many cities, especially those in the west (SF included). How can a neighborhood that close to downtown (a rather large downtown) with subway access, a grid, and 50k++ppsm density still be as autocentric as it is?

To me I think that indicates that Koreatown, while dense and vibrant, is not as traditionally urban as its counterparts in other cities.
Bleh I don't care about SF.

RE the bold: Same with Koreatown.... 2600 feet is the furthest distance between commercial streets, less than half a mile.

North to South:

  • 3rd Street is less than 2000 feet from 6th.
  • 6th is 700 feet from Wilshire.
  • Wilshire is 1500 feet from 8th.
  • 8th is 1800 feet from Olympic. And you can keep on going down the grid through Mid City to the 10 that way, with Pico, Venice, Washington.

West to East:

  • Western is 2400 feet from Normandie/Irolo (which is admittedly a weak commercial corridor that is mostly residential).
  • Irolo/Normandie is 2600 feet from Vermont.
For some reason, Los Angeles has always been a city that centered itself on E-W streets. Perhaps it was due to the ceaseless march to the sea. Even today the most difficult transit commutes involve going North to South, and now the Metro Rail is shaping up to have the same problem until the Crenshaw Line is finally completed up to Hollywood, which may not be for 30+ years.
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Old 04-23-2015, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,087 posts, read 12,579,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Chicago is a lot like this too with the setbacks and landscaped sidewalks, partly why it reminds me of LA away from the Loop/River North areas.
Totally agree. I almost said that in my post, those areas remind me a lot of Chicago. Also a couple areas of Boston. But mostly Chicago.
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Old 04-23-2015, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,624 posts, read 24,832,767 times
Reputation: 11185
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwright1 View Post
I think the video is great. I think DDirt's pics are great ones of KT. Your obsession with statistics don't always reflect what YOU think an area is like. Also when I lived in KT I owned a car but honestly only really used it on the weekends. I worked dt then and walked to the subway station 3 blocks away. I know of no one who lived in KT and drove to work dt. But I also know people who live in Koreatown and drive to jobs in Venice, Marina Del Rey and Encino. To me the comparison of the two is odd. Koreatown is so much bigger, more of a city within a city.
My "obsession with statistics" is a product of statements like the one in bold, which ultimately mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. For example, I have a friend who drove from his neighborhood in Upper Manhattan to a job in another neighborhood in Upper Manhattan. That one data point hardly proves a trend among hundreds of thousands of commuters.

It doesn't really matter how big Koreatown is. If the comparison were between Ft. Greene and Koreatown, would it really matter that the former is only a fraction the size of the latter? You could still examine both neighborhoods across various metrics, even if that means looking only at the peak density areas that are comparable in size.
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Old 04-23-2015, 01:13 PM
 
9,591 posts, read 10,929,874 times
Reputation: 2128
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonelitist View Post
^^^I think you're confusing residential-only blocks with residential-only streets. Yes, if there is a quarter mile or half mile stretch of a street in an urban area with higher density, then yes, that is akin to a residential only street. But my point is that when you get to urban areas that are 50k ppsm or greater in density, it gets very very difficult if not impossible to find a stretch of street that long without active commercial uses. I still say it's actually impossible in NYC, SF, Boston, etc. These cities are very very highly mixed use and conducive to a car free/walkable lifestyle. DC too it seems since that many more people are walking/taking transit than in Koreatown, even if DC isn't quite as dense.

I get that LA's job centers are scattered, but so are many cities, especially those in the west (SF included). How can a neighborhood that close to downtown (a rather large downtown) with subway access, a grid, and 50k++ppsm density still be as autocentric as it is?

To me I think that indicates that Koreatown, while dense and vibrant, is not as traditionally urban as its counterparts in other cities.
DC retail is a very tricky entity. Height restrictions have caused DC retail prices per square foot to be astronomical which hurts retail. DC is just getting on the level of the most urban cities now. In the past, DC didn't have the density to support retail in many areas. The city lost close to 50% of its population by 2000. Retail is coming back like a flood now, but in a different way. Instead of boulevards, entire neighborhoods are building retail under high rise buildings all over the city.

-Mt. Vernon Triangle
-NOMA
-Captial Riverfront
-Union Market
-Waterfront Station/The Wharf
-SW Eco District
-New City/New York Avenue Corridor

All these are being added to traditional mixed use retail under residential boulevards like

-H street
-14th Street
-7th Street/Geogia Avenue
-9th Street
-U street/Florida Avenue
-18th Street
-Connecticut Avenue
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Old 04-23-2015, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,087 posts, read 12,579,873 times
Reputation: 3941
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
DC retail is a very tricky entity. Height restrictions have caused DC retail prices per square foot to be astronomical which hurts retail. DC is just getting on the level of the most urban cities now. In the past, DC didn't have the density to support retail in many areas. The city lost close to 50% of its population by 2000. Retail is coming back like a flood now, but in a different way. Instead of boulevards, entire neighborhoods are building retail under high rise buildings all over the city.

-Mt. Vernon Triangle
-NOMA
-Captial Riverfront
-Union Market
-Waterfront Station/The Wharf
-SW Eco District
-New City/New York Avenue Corridor

All these are being added to traditional mixed use retail under residential boulevards like

-H street
-14th Street
-7th Street/Geogia Avenue
-9th Street
-U street/Florida Avenue
-18th Street
-Connecticut Avenue
Is that big retail center on 14th Street (think it is Target and Best Buy anchored) mixed use?

Reminds me a lot of this in West Hollywood:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0906...j0FhfLHxrQ!2e0

Mainly because it looks like a huge all-retail complex that happens to have similar tenants.
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