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View Poll Results: What is the Midwest's second city/metropolis?
Greater Detroit 65 41.67%
Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul 91 58.33%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-15-2015, 09:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Estimates of changes from 2010 I saw are a few hundred people up for MSA, several thousand people down for CSA, and a couple tens of thousands down for the city itself. I'm not sure I'd agree with the assessment this isn't still a downwards trajectory overall, though of course, these are estimates. I think the region as a whole is at least bottoming out population-wise and about to rebound though hasn't quite hit there yet. The city still has a bit more to go. Compare that to the fairly steady growth the Twin Cities have. At what point does it seem like the two intersect given current trends (this is on the, of course, unsteady assumption that these trends continue)? The core of the Twin Cities (the Twin Cities themselves) is certainly healthier than Detroit proper is at this point and the Twin Cities have the ability to heavily invest in infrastructure so the outlook for the Twin Cities looks to be great for the foreseeable future. One interesting note is that the Twin Cities combined (solely Minneapolis and Saint Paul which are adjacent to each other and share a long border) have just recently passed the city of Detroit in population while covering a smaller area? I think that's a pretty visible sign of the trajectory of things.



I'm just now realizing you might not have understood this topic. I don't think anyone has ever argued against the idea Detroit is the more populous area of the two. Not a single post has reflected that. Moreover, the topic at hand isn't asking specifically about which is the more populous of the two--that wouldn't be much of a topic for the most part since you can pretty much look it up and by any measurement or official boundary, Detroit is bigger.

This topic is about making a hierarchy--i.e. classifying the position of the two within the same space. Population is certainly one of the measures, but there's also the GDP of the areas in terms of measuring economic influence and importance.

There can be a variety of other metrics out there. You can argue that University of Michigan in the Detroit MSA is better than University of Minnesota and the other colleges in the Minnesota area and that should count for something. You can argue that the Twin Cities also plays host to its state capital and therefore has a bit more sway in its own region than Detroit does since Lansing is pretty far out. There are a lot of arguments.

You can certainly make the argument that the dollar, which you reduced this down to, is a pretty good proxy of economic health and influence, is a very important factor. In fact, I believe there are many people and organizations who are working on getting Detroit more dollars for everyone there. I think the state and federal government should have probably been thinking of better ways of putting more of those dollars into Detroit and constantly testing and following up for effectiveness of the use of those dollars for a while, because it's ridiculous for Detroit to have been so long suffering given its remarkable history.
Well....first....the University of Michigan is not even included in the "Metro" Detroit numbers. The GDP of "Detroit", that is compared with the GDP of "Minneapolis" is basically the Detroit-Livonia-Warren Michigan area. If You include Ann Arbor to the "Metro" the GDP's would be about the same. However, this is deceptive too.

Lets take a component of GDP. GDP is essentially the dollar value of goods and services exchanged, if I am not mistaken. Lets look at Median home prices....for example. A lot of GDP is going to come from the buying and selling of homes. If the median home prices in Minneapolis are significantly higher than the median home prices in Detroit.....even if the amount of homes sales were the same in volume, the GDP of the Twin Cities would get a much bigger boost simply from the value of those homes costing more. Right? Thus, a higher cost of living creates, in turn, a higher GDP, even if all other things are equal. That is what I am saying. Essentially, I see the argument as this: "what is the second richest metro area in the Midwest". Class and race also plays into this, as white America has 15 times the wealth of black America, half the unemployment and a poverty rate three times less than blacks. Thus, a metro area that is so overwhelmingly white will have higher median and average wealth, real estate, incomes....and hence GDP, than a metro area that is about 20% African American.

 
Old 05-15-2015, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis (St. Louis Park)
5,991 posts, read 7,923,517 times
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Is this an argument for Detroit or an excuse?
 
Old 05-15-2015, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Maryland
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I think it's clear that neither is soundly in second place, and that there are certain metrics that can put one ahead of the other. My knee-jerk reaction is that I still consider Detroit the second most important metro area in the Midwest, but I can see how in the future the Twin Cities may continue to gain traction and could potentially pull away from Detroit to easily become the second metro in the Midwest. But who knows, the reverse could also happen.
 
Old 05-15-2015, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis (St. Louis Park)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maintainschaos View Post
I think it's clear that neither is soundly in second place, and that there are certain metrics that can put one ahead of the other. My knee-jerk reaction is that I still consider Detroit the second most important metro area in the Midwest, but I can see how in the future the Twin Cities may continue to gain traction and could potentially pull away from Detroit to easily become the second metro in the Midwest. But who knows, the reverse could also happen.
Yep, agree on all points (and I have a bias towards MSP).
 
Old 05-15-2015, 12:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Min-Chi-Cbus View Post
Is this an argument for Detroit or an excuse?
Who you talkin to....me? To me, the term excuse does not exist to my vocabulary. Either something is fact or fiction, reason or a lie.

If you polled 100 African Americans, I can guarantee you that the vast majority of them would vote Detroit, Behind Chicago, then probably Cleveland or St Louis, then maybe Minneapolis. Why, because they find things of greater importance to them in those cities than they do in Minneapolis. Thus, really, it depends on what is important to YOU, which is subjective.

That having been said, I have more "excuses" for Detroit. If Detroit's Major Industry completely Collapsed (the corporations based in Detroit area).....it would have a much more rippling and damaging impact on the US economy than if the major corporations of the Twin Cities collapsed. Another thing is trade. Detroit represents an international trade border with our largest trading partner, Canada. It is much more important than Minneapolis in regards to international trade. There are also 46 Million people within a 300 mile radius of Detroit, which means that it is more important as a distribution hub to get products to a larger market than Minneapolis could ever do because of its remote location.


Detroit is simply a region that people like to pick on and diminish because of the hard times it has gone through. People like to undervalue, underestimate and marginalize Detroit, and the region, mainly because of the city proper. Minneapolis is a "neat" city and region (cold as heck though in January)....but it is not what Detroit is in terms of population and importance to the overall US economy. I mean....there is no industry referred to in the US economy as "Minneapolis".....but a major US industry is still known as "Detroit".

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-15-2015 at 12:18 PM..
 
Old 05-15-2015, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Tampa - St. Louis
1,029 posts, read 1,534,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Who you talkin to....me? To me, the term excuse does not exist to my vocabulary. Either something is fact or fiction, reason or a lie.

If you polled 100 African Americans, I can guarantee you that the vast majority of them would vote Detroit, Behind Chicago, then probably Cleveland or St Louis, then maybe Minneapolis. Why, because they find things of greater importance to them in those cities than they do in Minneapolis. Thus, really, it depends on what is important to YOU, which is subjective.

That having been said, I have more "excuses" for Detroit. If Detroit's Major Industry completely Collapsed (the corporations based in Detroit area).....it would have a much more rippling and damaging impact on the US economy than if the major corporations of the Twin Cities collapsed. Another thing is trade. Detroit represents an international trade border with our largest trading partner, Canada. It is much more important than Minneapolis in regards to international trade. There are also 46 Million people within a 300 mile radius of Detroit, which means that it is more important as a distribution hub to get products to a larger market than Minneapolis could ever do because of its remote location.


Detroit is simply a region that people like to pick on and diminish because of the hard times it has gone through. People like to undervalue, underestimate and marginalize Detroit, and the region, mainly because of the city proper. Minneapolis is a "neat" city and region (cold as heck though in January)....but it is not what Detroit is in terms of population and importance to the overall US economy. I mean....there is no industry referred to in the US economy as "Minneapolis".....but a major US industry is still known as "Detroit".
Very....very....very true. My fiance is from Pittsburgh and even though Pittsburgh is blacker than Minneapolis, she says she loves St. Louis because its Blacker than Pittsburgh. Many people on this forum consider Pittsburgh to be the superior city for many things, but she said it was boring and didn't really offer as much in terms of African-American culture as St. Louis. She was also shocked by St. Louis' large expanse of "black suburbia" and never had met so many black professionals in her life. When she found out St. Louis had a black county executive back then, she was like WHAT....the whole county?
 
Old 05-15-2015, 01:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goat314 View Post
Very....very....very true. My fiance is from Pittsburgh and even though Pittsburgh is blacker than Minneapolis, she says she loves St. Louis because its Blacker than Pittsburgh. Many people on this forum consider Pittsburgh to be the superior city for many things, but she said it was boring and didn't really offer as much in terms of African-American culture as St. Louis. She was also shocked by St. Louis' large expanse of "black suburbia" and never had met so many black professionals in her life. When she found out St. Louis had a black county executive back then, she was like WHAT....the whole county?
Thank you Yep.....which is the same reason that many whites find it harder to find favor with a city that is 85% African American, because culturally it does not offer them what they can find in Chicago or Minneapolis, in regards to white urbanity. I have no problem with that either. People tend to like places where people like them can be found in abundance. I do not knock anyone for that, but lets just call it for what it is and stop acting like it has something to do with GDP and all that other stuff. I mean....really....the Detroit region is HUGE, much more populated than the Twin Cities region, it is home to a key US industry and is a key corridor for international trade, as well as a key distribution hub that can reach millions of more people than Minneapolis. However, the region is much poorer than Minneapolis, and a lot less white and for that many people find it less important to them than a place like Minneapolis.
 
Old 05-15-2015, 02:02 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,152 posts, read 21,752,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Well....first....the University of Michigan is not even included in the "Metro" Detroit numbers. The GDP of "Detroit", that is compared with the GDP of "Minneapolis" is basically the Detroit-Livonia-Warren Michigan area. If You include Ann Arbor to the "Metro" the GDP's would be about the same. However, this is deceptive too.

Lets take a component of GDP. GDP is essentially the dollar value of goods and services exchanged, if I am not mistaken. Lets look at Median home prices....for example. A lot of GDP is going to come from the buying and selling of homes. If the median home prices in Minneapolis are significantly higher than the median home prices in Detroit.....even if the amount of homes sales were the same in volume, the GDP of the Twin Cities would get a much bigger boost simply from the value of those homes costing more. Right? Thus, a higher cost of living creates, in turn, a higher GDP, even if all other things are equal. That is what I am saying. Essentially, I see the argument as this: "what is the second richest metro area in the Midwest". Class and race also plays into this, as white America has 15 times the wealth of black America, half the unemployment and a poverty rate three times less than blacks. Thus, a metro area that is so overwhelmingly white will have higher median and average wealth, real estate, incomes....and hence GDP, than a metro area that is about 20% African American.
How is GDP, dollars, not tied into the influence of a city though? I'm not sure what you think the basis for an argument is. Are there huge inequalities in the US? Yes. Is that the topic actually being discussed though?
 
Old 05-15-2015, 02:03 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,152 posts, read 21,752,589 times
Reputation: 10226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Who you talkin to....me? To me, the term excuse does not exist to my vocabulary. Either something is fact or fiction, reason or a lie.

If you polled 100 African Americans, I can guarantee you that the vast majority of them would vote Detroit, Behind Chicago, then probably Cleveland or St Louis, then maybe Minneapolis. Why, because they find things of greater importance to them in those cities than they do in Minneapolis. Thus, really, it depends on what is important to YOU, which is subjective.

That having been said, I have more "excuses" for Detroit. If Detroit's Major Industry completely Collapsed (the corporations based in Detroit area).....it would have a much more rippling and damaging impact on the US economy than if the major corporations of the Twin Cities collapsed. Another thing is trade. Detroit represents an international trade border with our largest trading partner, Canada. It is much more important than Minneapolis in regards to international trade. There are also 46 Million people within a 300 mile radius of Detroit, which means that it is more important as a distribution hub to get products to a larger market than Minneapolis could ever do because of its remote location.


Detroit is simply a region that people like to pick on and diminish because of the hard times it has gone through. People like to undervalue, underestimate and marginalize Detroit, and the region, mainly because of the city proper. Minneapolis is a "neat" city and region (cold as heck though in January)....but it is not what Detroit is in terms of population and importance to the overall US economy. I mean....there is no industry referred to in the US economy as "Minneapolis".....but a major US industry is still known as "Detroit".
Is the topic "which city do you think more African-Americans would prefer?"

I don't think the stating of fact that Detroit has had a fairly rough half century is tantamount to picking on or diminishing Detroit. It's simply what happened for various reasons. Much of that is the fact that Detroit was heavily reliant on a single industry (though that comes with several auxiliary industries, but still closely related) which meant downturns in that industry or competition from abroad puts it at risk. I don't think there's not much wrong with having a broad and diversified economy.
 
Old 05-15-2015, 03:17 PM
 
8,669 posts, read 6,344,426 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Is the topic "which city do you think more African-Americans would prefer?"

I don't think the stating of fact that Detroit has had a fairly rough half century is tantamount to picking on or diminishing Detroit. It's simply what happened for various reasons. Much of that is the fact that Detroit was heavily reliant on a single industry (though that comes with several auxiliary industries, but still closely related) which meant downturns in that industry or competition from abroad puts it at risk. I don't think there's not much wrong with having a broad and diversified economy.
No...but by default it IS "which city do white Americans prefer". I mean, that is the only real metric here that gives Minneapolis an edge....with white people. Of course then, the greater percentage white an area is, it is going to have higher per capita incomes, higher rates of wealth, lower rates of poverty, better schools, and so and and so forth, then all those things produce a higher level of business activity, GDP, sounder neighborhoods and the like. It helps all those criteria that the OP mentioned and more. However, I will state it again. This way of looking at things undervalues, underestimates and marginalizes the poor and minorities from the metrics. Thus, Detroit is considered LESS THAN Minneapolis, less influential, less important, because it is poorer and blacker, which richer and whiter Americans find less important and less influential (which may be true for whites...but as a black person that makes it more influential and more important to me).

All that being said.....like I said before...there are 2 million more people in the same size land area of the twin cities MSA, superimposed over the Detroit area. Two million more people means.....regardless of class and color....makes Detroit the unmistakable the second city of the Midwest....leaving out all the other subjective BS.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-15-2015 at 03:25 PM..
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