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View Poll Results: What is the Midwest's second city/metropolis?
Greater Detroit 65 41.67%
Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul 91 58.33%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-15-2015, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Tokyo, Japan
6,617 posts, read 8,271,245 times
Reputation: 7561

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01. United States: $16.8 Trillion
02. China: $9.240 Trillion
03. Japan: $4.901 Trillion
04. Germany: $3.634 Trillion
05. France: $2.735 Trillion
06. United Kingdom: $2.522 Trillion
07. Brazil: $2.245 Trillion
08. Russia: $2.097 Trillion
09. Italy: $2.071 Trillion
10. India: $1.876 Trillion
11. Canada: $1.825 Trillion
12. Australia: $1.560 Trillion
13. Spain: $1.358 Trillion
14. South Korea: $1.304 Trillion
15. Mexico: $1.261 Trillion
16. Indonesia: $868.346 Billion
17. Turkey: $820,207 Billion
18, Netherlands: $800.173 Billion
19. Saudi Arabia: $745.273 Billion
20. Switzerland: $650.782 Billion
21. Argentina: $611.755 Billion
22. Sweden: $557.938 Billion
23. Nigeria: $522.638 Billion
24. Poland: $517.543 Billion
25. Norway: $512.580 Billion
26. Belgium: $$508.116 Billion
27. Venezuela: $438.284 Billion
28. Austria: $415.844 Billion
29. Thailand: $ 387.252 Billion
30. United Arab Emirates: $383.799 Billion
31. Colombia: $378.148 Billion
32. Iran: $368.904 Billion
33. South Africa: $350.630 Billion
34. Denmark: $330.814 Billion
35. Malaysia: $312.435 Billion
36. Singapore: $297.941 Billion
37. Israel: $291.375 Billion
38. Chile: $277.199 Billion
39. Hong Kong: $274.013 Billion
40. Philippines: $272,017 Billion
41. Egypt: $271.973 Billion
- Greater Detroit: $262.166 Billion
42. Finland: $256.842 Billion
43. Greece: $241.721 Billion
44. Pakistan: $236.625 Billion
- Greater Minneapolis-Saint Paul: $236.389 Billion
45. Kazakhstan: $224.415 Billion
46. Iraq: $222.879 Billion
47. Portugal: $219.962 Billion
48. Ireland: $217.816 Billion
49. Algeria: $210.183 Billion
50. Qatar: $202.450 Billion
51. Peru: $202.296 Billion
52. Czech Republic: $198.450 Billion
53. Romania: $189.638 Billion
54. Kuwait: $183.219 Billion
55. New Zealand: $182.594 Billion
56. Ukraine: $177.431 Billion
57. Vietnam: $171.392 Billion
- Greater Cleveland: $170.063 Billion

01. Greater New York: $1.683 Trillion
02. Greater Los Angeles: $999.661 Billion
03. Greater San Francisco Bay Area: $664.687 Billion
04. Greater Washington DC and Baltimore: $657.039 Billion
05. Greater Chicago: $597.805 Billion
06. Greater Houston: $517.367 Billion
07. Greater Boston: $514.586 Billion
08. Greater Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex: $451.436 Billion
09. Greater Philadelphia: $429.838 Billion
10. Greater Atlanta: $314.759 Billion
11. Greater Seattle: $309.577 Billion
12. Greater Miami: $297.071 Billion
13. Greater Detroit: $262.166 Billion
14. Greater Minneapolis-Saint Paul: $236.389 Billion

15. Greater Denver: $209.648 Billion
16. Greater Phoenix: $209.523 Billion
17. Greater San Diego: $197.886 Billion
18. Greater Portland: $189.268 Billion
19. Greater Cleveland: $170.063 Billion

Here is the population of some of the countries Greater Detroit and Greater Minneapolis-Saint Paul have larger, more productive, more lucrative, more valuable, more advanced, more innovative, more global economies than:

- Pakistan: 189,790,000 people
- Vietnam: 91,583,000 people
- Ethiopia: 90,076,012 people
- Egypt: 88,516,700 people
- Democratic Republic of Congo: 71,246,000 people
- Burma: 51,419,420 people
- Tanzania: 47,421,786 people
- Kenya: 46,749,000 people
- Ukraine: 42,895,704 people
- Algeria: 40,400,000 people
- Sudan: 38,435,252 people
- Iraq: 36,004,552 people
- Greece: 10,816,286 people
- Portugal: 10,477,800 people

There is literally like 110-140 more countries we can list here, but you get the point.

Basically what each place is able to do with 3-5 million people it surpasses what it takes 10-200 million people elsewhere in the world.

 
Old 05-15-2015, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Michigan
4,571 posts, read 7,007,977 times
Reputation: 3599
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Estimates of changes from 2010 I saw are a few hundred people up for MSA, several thousand people down for CSA, and a couple tens of thousands down for the city itself. I'm not sure I'd agree with the assessment this isn't still a downwards trajectory overall, though of course, these are estimates. I think the region as a whole is at least bottoming out population-wise and about to rebound though hasn't quite hit there yet. The city still has a bit more to go. Compare that to the fairly steady growth the Twin Cities have. At what point does it seem like the two intersect given current trends (this is on the, of course, unsteady assumption that these trends continue)? The core of the Twin Cities (the Twin Cities themselves) is certainly healthier than Detroit proper is at this point and the Twin Cities have the ability to heavily invest in infrastructure so the outlook for the Twin Cities looks to be great for the foreseeable future. One interesting note is that the Twin Cities combined (solely Minneapolis and Saint Paul which are adjacent to each other and share a long border) have just recently passed the city of Detroit in population while covering a smaller area? I think that's a pretty visible sign of the trajectory of things.
The CSA includes Flint, which no one considers apart of the Greater Detroit area or even Southeast Michigan, and a bunch of rural areas that have been losing population since the industrial revolution.
 
Old 05-15-2015, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Detroit
3,654 posts, read 4,577,785 times
Reputation: 2561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John View Post
01. United States: $16.8 Trillion
02. China: $9.240 Trillion
03. Japan: $4.901 Trillion
04. Germany: $3.634 Trillion
05. France: $2.735 Trillion
06. United Kingdom: $2.522 Trillion
07. Brazil: $2.245 Trillion
08. Russia: $2.097 Trillion
09. Italy: $2.071 Trillion
10. India: $1.876 Trillion
11. Canada: $1.825 Trillion
12. Australia: $1.560 Trillion
13. Spain: $1.358 Trillion
14. South Korea: $1.304 Trillion
15. Mexico: $1.261 Trillion
16. Indonesia: $868.346 Billion
17. Turkey: $820,207 Billion
18, Netherlands: $800.173 Billion
19. Saudi Arabia: $745.273 Billion
20. Switzerland: $650.782 Billion
21. Argentina: $611.755 Billion
22. Sweden: $557.938 Billion
23. Nigeria: $522.638 Billion
24. Poland: $517.543 Billion
25. Norway: $512.580 Billion
26. Belgium: $$508.116 Billion
27. Venezuela: $438.284 Billion
28. Austria: $415.844 Billion
29. Thailand: $ 387.252 Billion
30. United Arab Emirates: $383.799 Billion
31. Colombia: $378.148 Billion
32. Iran: $368.904 Billion
33. South Africa: $350.630 Billion
34. Denmark: $330.814 Billion
35. Malaysia: $312.435 Billion
36. Singapore: $297.941 Billion
37. Israel: $291.375 Billion
38. Chile: $277.199 Billion
39. Hong Kong: $274.013 Billion
40. Philippines: $272,017 Billion
41. Egypt: $271.973 Billion
- Greater Detroit: $262.166 Billion
42. Finland: $256.842 Billion
43. Greece: $241.721 Billion
44. Pakistan: $236.625 Billion
- Greater Minneapolis-Saint Paul: $236.389 Billion
45. Kazakhstan: $224.415 Billion
46. Iraq: $222.879 Billion
47. Portugal: $219.962 Billion
48. Ireland: $217.816 Billion
49. Algeria: $210.183 Billion
50. Qatar: $202.450 Billion
51. Peru: $202.296 Billion
52. Czech Republic: $198.450 Billion
53. Romania: $189.638 Billion
54. Kuwait: $183.219 Billion
55. New Zealand: $182.594 Billion
56. Ukraine: $177.431 Billion
57. Vietnam: $171.392 Billion
- Greater Cleveland: $170.063 Billion

01. Greater New York: $1.683 Trillion
02. Greater Los Angeles: $999.661 Billion
03. Greater San Francisco Bay Area: $664.687 Billion
04. Greater Washington DC and Baltimore: $657.039 Billion
05. Greater Chicago: $597.805 Billion
06. Greater Houston: $517.367 Billion
07. Greater Boston: $514.586 Billion
08. Greater Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex: $451.436 Billion
09. Greater Philadelphia: $429.838 Billion
10. Greater Atlanta: $314.759 Billion
11. Greater Seattle: $309.577 Billion
12. Greater Miami: $297.071 Billion
13. Greater Detroit: $262.166 Billion
14. Greater Minneapolis-Saint Paul: $236.389 Billion

15. Greater Denver: $209.648 Billion
16. Greater Phoenix: $209.523 Billion
17. Greater San Diego: $197.886 Billion
18. Greater Portland: $189.268 Billion
19. Greater Cleveland: $170.063 Billion

Here is the population of some of the countries Greater Detroit and Greater Minneapolis-Saint Paul have larger, more productive, more lucrative, more valuable, more advanced, more innovative, more global economies than:

- Pakistan: 189,790,000 people
- Vietnam: 91,583,000 people
- Ethiopia: 90,076,012 people
- Egypt: 88,516,700 people
- Democratic Republic of Congo: 71,246,000 people
- Burma: 51,419,420 people
- Tanzania: 47,421,786 people
- Kenya: 46,749,000 people
- Ukraine: 42,895,704 people
- Algeria: 40,400,000 people
- Sudan: 38,435,252 people
- Iraq: 36,004,552 people
- Greece: 10,816,286 people
- Portugal: 10,477,800 people

There is literally like 110-140 more countries we can list here, but you get the point.

Basically what each place is able to do with 3-5 million people it surpasses what it takes 10-200 million people elsewhere in the world.
Thanks for the post. What you said at the end is very interesting. I never thought about that.
 
Old 05-16-2015, 09:26 AM
 
203 posts, read 286,807 times
Reputation: 146
If the twin cities hasn't passed Detroit by now it never will. Detroit has already bottomed out and is on its way back. so
 
Old 05-16-2015, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Tokyo, Japan
6,617 posts, read 8,271,245 times
Reputation: 7561
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS313 View Post
Thanks for the post. What you said at the end is very interesting. I never thought about that.
If you live in a place that is more productive/wealthier/more lucrative, you live in a better place than everywhere beneath you - since the goal of every place on the planet is to increase wages, increase productivity, and remain economically relevant in every facet. Everywhere else beneath you can have people who cry, b****, and whine until they are blue in the face, it wont ever change the fact that if it came down to purchasing power, they would get owned by somewhere else.

For example, if everyone in Los Angeles wanted to get around the idea of putting all their production value together and potentially purchasing the entire country and/or economy of Turkey or Indonesia (if that were ever allowed), they can do that and no one can do anything about it because Los Angeles has the potential purchasing power to do so.

The United Nations actually designates "first world, second world, or third world" statuses to countries (or the newer high-income/middle-income/low-income status) based off GDP and GDP per capita. So essentially the measurement serves to designate how advanced/lucrative/productive people in given geographies are. That is how they should be used for cities too.

Last edited by Trafalgar Law; 05-16-2015 at 04:16 PM..
 
Old 05-16-2015, 05:29 PM
 
9,948 posts, read 6,852,013 times
Reputation: 4219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John View Post
If you live in a place that is more productive/wealthier/more lucrative, you live in a better place than everywhere beneath you - since the goal of every place on the planet is to increase wages, increase productivity, and remain economically relevant in every facet. Everywhere else beneath you can have people who cry, b****, and whine until they are blue in the face, it wont ever change the fact that if it came down to purchasing power, they would get owned by somewhere else.

For example, if everyone in Los Angeles wanted to get around the idea of putting all their production value together and potentially purchasing the entire country and/or economy of Turkey or Indonesia (if that were ever allowed), they can do that and no one can do anything about it because Los Angeles has the potential purchasing power to do so.

The United Nations actually designates "first world, second world, or third world" statuses to countries (or the newer high-income/middle-income/low-income status) based off GDP and GDP per capita. So essentially the measurement serves to designate how advanced/lucrative/productive people in given geographies are. That is how they should be used for cities too.
I do not agree with that at all. Ultimately the goal is happiness....and not productivity, wealth and all that. Money and wealth are related, to a degree, with happiness, but once you have enough money to have food security, housing security, health security.....then adding more wealth does not necessarily add more happiness. If spend 60 hours a week working, you might be accumulating income and wealth, but I can guarantee you that the price you are paying is in your relationships...and maybe even your health from all the stress of trying to win the game of who has the most stuff. Our consumer based economy tricks us into thinking that "Things" buy happiness and hence the more things you have and produce the happier you are. True happiness comes from health and relationships....not material things, however, people use material things to buy relationships.

I bet you I that I know plenty of people who make about 30,000 a year who are a lot happier than someone making a million dollars a year.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-16-2015 at 05:57 PM..
 
Old 05-16-2015, 07:25 PM
AT9
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
691 posts, read 1,040,102 times
Reputation: 503
Well if anything in this debate is clear, to the degree that public perception dictates the second city status, it looks like there is a clear (though not lop-sided) winner according to the poll: Minneapolis.
 
Old 05-16-2015, 08:20 PM
 
1,779 posts, read 2,130,129 times
Reputation: 1781
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Who you talkin to....me? To me, the term excuse does not exist to my vocabulary. Either something is fact or fiction, reason or a lie.

If you polled 100 African Americans, I can guarantee you that the vast majority of them would vote Detroit, Behind Chicago, then probably Cleveland or St Louis, then maybe Minneapolis. Why, because they find things of greater importance to them in those cities than they do in Minneapolis. Thus, really, it depends on what is important to YOU, which is subjective.

That having been said, I have more "excuses" for Detroit. If Detroit's Major Industry completely Collapsed (the corporations based in Detroit area).....it would have a much more rippling and damaging impact on the US economy than if the major corporations of the Twin Cities collapsed. Another thing is trade. Detroit represents an international trade border with our largest trading partner, Canada. It is much more important than Minneapolis in regards to international trade. There are also 46 Million people within a 300 mile radius of Detroit, which means that it is more important as a distribution hub to get products to a larger market than Minneapolis could ever do because of its remote location.


Detroit is simply a region that people like to pick on and diminish because of the hard times it has gone through. People like to undervalue, underestimate and marginalize Detroit, and the region, mainly because of the city proper. Minneapolis is a "neat" city and region (cold as heck though in January)....but it is not what Detroit is in terms of population and importance to the overall US economy. I mean....there is no industry referred to in the US economy as "Minneapolis".....but a major US industry is still known as "Detroit".
Minneapolis blows Detroit away in the following:

-Rapid Transit and public transit in general

-the number of vibrant, hip, artsy neighborhoods within the city limits

-the public park system (although I don't think the Twin Cities have one large signature park like Belle Isle)

-biking/cycling infrastructure and culture

-diversity within the city limits (the Twin Cities are 60% white with sizeable Somalian, Hmong, and African-American populations, while Detroit is 82% black with small white, Mexican, and Middle-Eastern population)

-The Twin Cities have far, far less blight, decaying buildings, burnt out buildings

-I am guessing that the economy of the Twin Cities is growing faster than Detroit's, thus more job growth


These kind of things are important to all races of people

Detroit proper gets picked on (rightfully so) because it has a huge amount of violent crime, blight, decay, abandonment, and arson - much, much, much more than any other city.
 
Old 05-16-2015, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Tokyo, Japan
6,617 posts, read 8,271,245 times
Reputation: 7561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I do not agree with that at all. Ultimately the goal is happiness....and not productivity, wealth and all that. Money and wealth are related, to a degree, with happiness, but once you have enough money to have food security, housing security, health security.....then adding more wealth does not necessarily add more happiness. If spend 60 hours a week working, you might be accumulating income and wealth, but I can guarantee you that the price you are paying is in your relationships...and maybe even your health from all the stress of trying to win the game of who has the most stuff. Our consumer based economy tricks us into thinking that "Things" buy happiness and hence the more things you have and produce the happier you are. True happiness comes from health and relationships....not material things, however, people use material things to buy relationships.

I bet you I that I know plenty of people who make about 30,000 a year who are a lot happier than someone making a million dollars a year.
Materialism? Happiness? People?

The what is going on?

I am talking about economical purchasing power of a region, not individual people and their lust for buying things. I am talking about economic vitality not the standard for which modestly goal oriented types can find happiness.

The San Francisco Bay Area has an economic output of $650 Billion and a per capita figure that is like $98,000 per person annually or higher, you think those people are going to be satisfied reaching this threshold only to later decline from that peak and hit hard times?

The Bay Area region's purchasing power is too great, it has more purchasing power than the majority of the world's countries, which means it is well poised to extract, purchase, and innovate resources. The contributions of each individual person (per capita) have made it the most productive major city on the face of the planet. Now you'll see them take over, invest, buy, innovate, repeat cycle.
 
Old 05-16-2015, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Michigan
4,571 posts, read 7,007,977 times
Reputation: 3599
Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
-I am guessing that the economy of the Twin Cities is growing faster than Detroit's, thus more job growth
Economically, both cities are actually pretty much the same. Both areas are growing at about the same rate year-over-year; roughly 2.5%. Both have relatively same size labor force and total employed (Detroit is larger by about 250,000) and produce roughly the same number of jobs y-o-y. However, Detroit has a higher unemployment rate and thus under-performs relative to its size.

The only difference between the two is that Detroit's economy is mainly supported by manufacturing and has twice the number of manufacturing jobs than MSP. Meanwhile, MSP has many more government jobs which should be a given when one of the core cities is the state capital.

Detroit : Midwest Information Office : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
Minneapolis-St. Paul : Midwest Information Office : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

In one sense, it is technically easier to find a job in Minneapolis than it is in Detroit if you were a new arrival to either city. But it's not because either city outproduces jobs more than the other (they kind of don't), it's because there is less competition in Minneapolis and companies there are more likely to be desperate for workers while it's the opposite situation in Detroit.
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