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View Poll Results: What is the Midwest's second city/metropolis?
Greater Detroit 65 41.67%
Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul 91 58.33%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-16-2015, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Detroit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian View Post
Economically, both cities are actually pretty much the same. Both areas are growing at about the same rate year-over-year; roughly 2.5%. Both have relatively same size labor force and total employed (Detroit is larger by about 250,000) and produce roughly the same number of jobs y-o-y. However, Detroit has a higher unemployment rate and thus under-performs relative to its size.

The only difference between the two is that Detroit's economy is mainly supported by manufacturing and has twice the number of manufacturing jobs than MSP. Meanwhile, MSP has many more government jobs which should be a given when one of the core cities is the state capital.

Detroit : Midwest Information Office : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
Minneapolis-St. Paul : Midwest Information Office : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

In one sense, it is technically easier to find a job in Minneapolis than it is in Detroit if you were a new arrival to either city. But it's not because either city outproduces jobs more than the other (they kind of don't), it's because there is less competition in Minneapolis and companies there are more likely to be desperate for workers while it's the opposite situation in Detroit.
I didn't know Minny was the state capital. That definitely helps I guess. It still didn't catch up to Detroit until the great recession (Detroit's depression basically). Had trends been going the same way it was back at the end of the last decade, Minny would be clearly ahead by now. But since Detroit is bouncing back and trying to recover, their neck and neck. As far as GDP goes in the future, I want to give the edge to Detroit because I'm bias and it simply is bigger which means you will need more to serve the population. And I'm thinking the wages in the manufacturing industry will increase with their recent success. So more people with more spending power. I'm also hoping for a more diversified economy.

 
Old 05-17-2015, 08:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
Minneapolis blows Detroit away in the following:

-Rapid Transit and public transit in general

-the number of vibrant, hip, artsy neighborhoods within the city limits

-the public park system (although I don't think the Twin Cities have one large signature park like Belle Isle)

-biking/cycling infrastructure and culture

-diversity within the city limits (the Twin Cities are 60% white with sizeable Somalian, Hmong, and African-American populations, while Detroit is 82% black with small white, Mexican, and Middle-Eastern population)

-The Twin Cities have far, far less blight, decaying buildings, burnt out buildings
-I am guessing that the economy of the Twin Cities is growing faster than Detroit's, thus more job growth


These kind of things are important to all races of people

Detroit proper gets picked on (rightfully so) because it has a huge amount of violent crime, blight, decay, abandonment, and arson - much, much, much more than any other city.
I agree with you on most of those points....but knowing people in the corporate world in Minneapolis, who are recruiters of talent, the Twin Cities have an extremely hard time attracting and keeping talented African American professionals, which is one of the reason why the Twin Cities has some of the most atrocious statistics in regards to racial inequality between blacks and whites. All those things you note apparently does not woo upwardly mobile African Americans. Which brings me back to my point about race and class really being the deciding factor. The Twin Cities is the second city for whites and Detroit is the Second city for Blacks.

As I have said, I have lived in both cities. The ONLY reason that I am not living in Detroit now was due to the economy. Given the same economic opportunity I would pick the Detroit region hands down, over Minneapolis....but hey....that's me and I understand my criteria is different. Heck...If I wanted the Minneapolis experience I would just move to Ann Arbor.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-17-2015 at 09:04 AM..
 
Old 05-17-2015, 08:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John View Post
Materialism? Happiness? People?

The what is going on?

I am talking about economical purchasing power of a region, not individual people and their lust for buying things. I am talking about economic vitality not the standard for which modestly goal oriented types can find happiness.

The San Francisco Bay Area has an economic output of $650 Billion and a per capita figure that is like $98,000 per person annually or higher, you think those people are going to be satisfied reaching this threshold only to later decline from that peak and hit hard times?

The Bay Area region's purchasing power is too great, it has more purchasing power than the majority of the world's countries, which means it is well poised to extract, purchase, and innovate resources. The contributions of each individual person (per capita) have made it the most productive major city on the face of the planet. Now you'll see them take over, invest, buy, innovate, repeat cycle.
The Bay Areas purchasing power is not as great as it seems because the COST OF LIVING is extremely high. If you simply compared fast food workers in the bay area to fast food workers in Detroit or Mississippi, they make a lot more money but their purchasing power is not really greater because the cost to live in SF area is extremely high. Hence, the GDP of fast food workers in San Francisco would surpass that of similar sector workers in Detroit and Mississippi. Then you would herald the productivity of SF fast food workers relative to Detroit and Mississippi and put then ahead

GDP is a deceptive figure when you are comparing metro area to metro area because cost of living is not part of the calculation. In places with higher cost of living, pay is usually higher across the board, and these higher cost make the dollar value of economic transactions higher. The cost of living in the Minneapolis area is higher than it is in the Detroit area. Housing is more and wages are more and hence.....yes...those transactions will generate higher GDP than Detroit simply from the higher cost of living. Why you all cannot see this economics 101 fact is lost upon me. Aside from that, the GREATER Detroit area's GDP or IS HIGHER THAN THAT OF the greater TWIN CITIES!!!! That is because the Greater Detroit Area has like 2 million more people and thus despite a greater GDP per capita, the Detroit area being more populated creates a higher GDP.

Its kind of like comparing China to Japan. China's GDP has surpassed that of Japan, which used to be the second largest economy of the world. China is now the second largest economy in the world, but you all would argue that Japan is still the second largest economy in the world simply because it has a greater per capita GDP than does China. China gets its ranking from the economic activity of a larger population.....just as does Detroit.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-17-2015 at 09:07 AM..
 
Old 05-17-2015, 09:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS313 View Post
I didn't know Minny was the state capital. That definitely helps I guess. It still didn't catch up to Detroit until the great recession (Detroit's depression basically). Had trends been going the same way it was back at the end of the last decade, Minny would be clearly ahead by now. But since Detroit is bouncing back and trying to recover, their neck and neck. As far as GDP goes in the future, I want to give the edge to Detroit because I'm bias and it simply is bigger which means you will need more to serve the population. And I'm thinking the wages in the manufacturing industry will increase with their recent success. So more people with more spending power. I'm also hoping for a more diversified economy.

Actually St. Paul is the state capital....but its part of the Twin Cities metro. Another big boost for the Twin Cities is that the University of Minnesota is located in the heart of Minneapolis.
 
Old 05-17-2015, 09:06 AM
 
52,637 posts, read 75,477,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS313 View Post
I didn't know Minny was the state capital. That definitely helps I guess. It still didn't catch up to Detroit until the great recession (Detroit's depression basically). Had trends been going the same way it was back at the end of the last decade, Minny would be clearly ahead by now. But since Detroit is bouncing back and trying to recover, their neck and neck. As far as GDP goes in the future, I want to give the edge to Detroit because I'm bias and it simply is bigger which means you will need more to serve the population. And I'm thinking the wages in the manufacturing industry will increase with their recent success. So more people with more spending power. I'm also hoping for a more diversified economy.
St. Paul is the state capital, but the main point stands.

Like Indentured has mentioned, something that Detroit has is sizable influence and even affluence among various groups, including African Americans. Parts of Southfield, Farmington Hills, Oak Park, West Bloomfield and even the northern part of the city of Detroit around Woodward has concentrations of middle class and up African Americans in varying, but high degrees. Outside of maybe parts of the Brooklyns, you don't really have that in the Twin Cities.

Same goes for leadership and while I'm sure the Twin Cities has some leadership of various backgrounds, including having a Black female as mayor of Minneapolis in the 1990's, I think that is something Detroit has more of as well. I'm referring to the metro area and not just the cities, by the way.
 
Old 05-17-2015, 09:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
St. Paul is the state capital, but the main point stands.

Like Indentured has mentioned, something that Detroit has is sizable influence and even affluence among various groups, including African Americans. Parts of Southfield, Farmington Hills, Oak Park, West Bloomfield and even the northern part of the city of Detroit around Woodward has concentrations of middle class and up African Americans in varying, but high degrees. Outside of maybe parts of the Brooklyns, you don't really have that in the Twin Cities.

Same goes for leadership and while I'm sure the Twin Cities has some leadership of various backgrounds, including having a Black female as mayor of Minneapolis in the 1990's, I think that is something Detroit has more of as well. I'm referring to the metro area and not just the cities, by the way.
Yes....here is the thing. As an African American, I frequent BOTH the white community and the black community, were ever I go. I have interest in BOTH communities as I HAVE to interact in the white community just to make it in this corporate world. Thus, the white community and the black community COUNTS FOR ME and has value FOR ME. For many whites, however, the black community has no value to them....and hence.....a metro area whose core city is 85% black.....has little value to them....but for me, such a city has a lot of value because I interact with that community, have relationships, entertainment, etc.
 
Old 05-17-2015, 09:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS313 View Post
I didn't know Minny was the state capital. That definitely helps I guess. It still didn't catch up to Detroit until the great recession (Detroit's depression basically). Had trends been going the same way it was back at the end of the last decade, Minny would be clearly ahead by now. But since Detroit is bouncing back and trying to recover, their neck and neck. As far as GDP goes in the future, I want to give the edge to Detroit because I'm bias and it simply is bigger which means you will need more to serve the population. And I'm thinking the wages in the manufacturing industry will increase with their recent success. So more people with more spending power. I'm also hoping for a more diversified economy.
Also, with a revitalization of the core, commuting percentages may changes enough to change the scope of what is counted as the MSA. The region has the people, NOW, for Detroit to have an MSA of 5.5 million people. The only reason that it is 4.3 million and not 5.5 is due to where people commute in SE Michigan. The GDP or GMP (Gross Metro Product) is basically derived from the 3 county area, because that is what defines the MSA base upon commuter rates via the Office of Management and Budget (OMB). As an example, Grand Rapids went from being a metro area of about 600,000 to a metro area of slightly over 1 million, in a few years, just as a result of slight changes in commuter rates of certain counties in the GR area. Hence, Grand Rapids population swelled, as well as the new figure for it's metro GDP.

The Twin Cities, and others, are maxed out and cannot get a higher count from a change in commuter rates. You can tell if a metro area is maxed out from sprawl by their MSA footprint. The Twin Cities have an MSA footprint of over 8,000 square miles. That is a good chunk of the state of Minnesota. On the other hand, Detroit's MSA is less than 4,000 square miles, while the CSA (with over 5 million people) is still less than 6,000 square miles. Detroit's CSA could become it's MSA, with a change of commuter rates. Minneapolis CSA is about the same as its MSA's population. An 8,000 plus square mile Detroit MSA would make it about 6 million people, which would boost GDP for the metro considerably too.
 
Old 05-17-2015, 01:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
The Bay Areas purchasing power is not as great as it seems because the COST OF LIVING is extremely high. If you simply compared fast food workers in the bay area to fast food workers in Detroit or Mississippi, they make a lot more money but their purchasing power is not really greater because the cost to live in SF area is extremely high. Hence, the GDP of fast food workers in San Francisco would surpass that of similar sector workers in Detroit and Mississippi. Then you would herald the productivity of SF fast food workers relative to Detroit and Mississippi and put then ahead

GDP is a deceptive figure when you are comparing metro area to metro area because cost of living is not part of the calculation. In places with higher cost of living, pay is usually higher across the board, and these higher cost make the dollar value of economic transactions higher. The cost of living in the Minneapolis area is higher than it is in the Detroit area. Housing is more and wages are more and hence.....yes...those transactions will generate higher GDP than Detroit simply from the higher cost of living. Why you all cannot see this economics 101 fact is lost upon me. Aside from that, the GREATER Detroit area's GDP or IS HIGHER THAN THAT OF the greater TWIN CITIES!!!! That is because the Greater Detroit Area has like 2 million more people and thus despite a greater GDP per capita, the Detroit area being more populated creates a higher GDP.

Its kind of like comparing China to Japan. China's GDP has surpassed that of Japan, which used to be the second largest economy of the world. China is now the second largest economy in the world, but you all would argue that Japan is still the second largest economy in the world simply because it has a greater per capita GDP than does China. China gets its ranking from the economic activity of a larger population.....just as does Detroit.
I agree. It's actually comical how people in those regions seem to selectively choose to leave out those very important statistics.
 
Old 05-17-2015, 01:04 PM
 
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I am really pulling for a Detroit turnaround. While it has been the butt of many jokes, those telling them wish it would turn around in a big way. I can guarantee it.
 
Old 05-17-2015, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis (St. Louis Park)
5,991 posts, read 7,919,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I agree with you on most of those points....but knowing people in the corporate world in Minneapolis, who are recruiters of talent, the Twin Cities have an extremely hard time attracting and keeping talented African American professionals, which is one of the reason why the Twin Cities has some of the most atrocious statistics in regards to racial inequality between blacks and whites. All those things you note apparently does not woo upwardly mobile African Americans. Which brings me back to my point about race and class really being the deciding factor. The Twin Cities is the second city for whites and Detroit is the Second city for Blacks.

As I have said, I have lived in both cities. The ONLY reason that I am not living in Detroit now was due to the economy. Given the same economic opportunity I would pick the Detroit region hands down, over Minneapolis....but hey....that's me and I understand my criteria is different. Heck...If I wanted the Minneapolis experience I would just move to Ann Arbor.
Yet MSP has a much faster and nominal growth in terms of blacks/African Americans than Detroit. So either misery loves company or your point is moot.
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