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View Poll Results: What is the Midwest's second city/metropolis?
Greater Detroit 65 41.67%
Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul 91 58.33%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-18-2015, 10:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
Unfortunately, Detroit has a declining value to black folk because black folk are bailing from the city to live amongst the people in the suburbs who fled from them in the first place. We lost almost 200,000 black folk between 2000 and 2010. Outside of the downtown and riverfront and the numerous beautiful historic residential neighborhoods, Detroit proper offers very little to anybody.
That is a National Trend of blacks moving to the Suburbs....the same thing happened in Chicago and Cleveland and a host of other cities. What triggered it in Detroit and other places was the housing bubble, relaxed lending standards and such that allowed whites in inner-ring suburbs to buy bigger homes further out....but they needed someone to buy or rent their houses in order to make the move. The only demographic interested in those inner ring burbs were blacks from the city of Detroit. Blacks are moving into areas that are rapidly turning blacks, like Harper Woods, East Pointe, Southfield, etc.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-18-2015 at 11:31 AM..

 
Old 05-18-2015, 10:26 AM
 
1,780 posts, read 2,131,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YIMBY View Post
Actually, you are wrong. Before I was recruited and relocated to Minneapolis, I had heard and read nothing but positive things about the area. Of course there is the cold weather, but that is one of very few negatives. Compare that to what one hears / reads about Detroit on a daily and well, I will take the cold and all the positives of Minneapolis over Detroit.
This is just me postulating - Minneapolis/St. Paul didn't have the large influx of black folk from the south, so the white flight, considerable increase in violent crime, and the problems that come with having a large black underclass that overwhelmed cities like Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, Cincinnati, and to lesser extent, Chicago, didn't take hold in the Twin Cities to a large extent. That might be a MAJOR reason why the Twin Cities never declined as much as the other Rustbelt cities and why it was able to turnaround much quicker than those other midwest cities.
 
Old 05-18-2015, 10:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb and say economic opportunity is generally better for pretty much anyone, regardless of race, in the Twin Cities area for most economic sectors and occupations and that is the primary driver for people to move (from and to).

Also, I believe that a lot of the inequality for the minority population in the Twin Cities have to do with the rather huge number of refugees in the area (from Somalia and Southeast Asia especially).
I agree...but also it is true that many professional blacks, who have the talent and skill set to have their choice of where to work, are not as attracted to Minneapolis....even with the GREAT economy. It attracts and keeps poor blacks more than it can attract and keep educated and upper income blacks.
 
Old 05-18-2015, 10:33 AM
AT9
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
691 posts, read 1,040,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
67% of people picked manny pacquiao to defeat Floyd Mayweather too. Obviously, Floyd, like Detroit, is not too popular among people. End the end, Floyd proved the majority wrong. I mean, basing an argument on popular opinion ignores the empirical evidence of how wrong that has often been....ergo....the earth being flat ring any bells.
You side-stepped my main question/point. If it's such an easy distinction (you know, only unintelligent people would vote for MSP), then Detroit should be the clear winner unless a disproportionate number of MSP voters are unintelligent or a disproportionate number of MSP voters are too biased to cast an objective vote.

Does either exception apply?

If not, it seems that intelligent/unbiased people clearly CAN honestly claim/argue that MSP is the Midwest's second city. In that case, your initial statement is false.

Obviously public opinion isn't the only factor, but when you're discussing a somewhat subjective question, it's highly relevant. However most people think of "second city," most seem to think that MSP is more fits the criteria better than Detroit.
 
Old 05-18-2015, 11:24 AM
 
9,948 posts, read 6,855,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AT9 View Post
You side-stepped my main question/point. If it's such an easy distinction (you know, only unintelligent people would vote for MSP), then Detroit should be the clear winner unless a disproportionate number of MSP voters are unintelligent or a disproportionate number of MSP voters are too biased to cast an objective vote.

Does either exception apply?

If not, it seems that intelligent/unbiased people clearly CAN honestly claim/argue that MSP is the Midwest's second city. In that case, your initial statement is false.

Obviously public opinion isn't the only factor, but when you're discussing a somewhat subjective question, it's highly relevant. However most people think of "second city," most seem to think that MSP is more fits the criteria better than Detroit.
I would say that most posters are biased more than I would say that they are not intelligent.....the same with those who picked Manny over Floyd. Many people wanted Floyd to lose just because they do not like his personality. They ignored that Floyd is a more complete fighter, with a great defense as well as offense, faster hand speed and smarter fighter. Then again, people will redefine "what a boxer is or should be" in order to feed their bias. They will define a boxer to be a brawler, a person who just stands still and trade blows with another guy. Hence, they would then say that based upon that definition, Manny is the better fighter and actually won the fight. That is what people are doing with this juxtaposition.

Another thing you need to understand is that a lot of Out state Michigan HATES Detroit and the region and will jump at any chance to down it. All you have to do is visit the Michigan forum to note that.....although I will say that sentiment seem to be changing now that the people of the state realize that you cannot sell Michigan without selling Detroit.

Detroit is the "Big Boys" league. Minneapolis is still trying to get there.
 
Old 05-18-2015, 11:55 AM
AT9
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
691 posts, read 1,040,390 times
Reputation: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I would say that most posters are biased more than I would say that they are not intelligent.....the same with those who picked Manny over Floyd. Many people wanted Floyd to lose just because they do not like his personality. They ignored that Floyd is a more complete fighter, with a great defense as well as offense, faster hand speed and smarter fighter. Then again, people will redefine "what a boxer is or should be" in order to feed their bias. They will define a boxer to be a brawler, a person who just stands still and trade blows with another guy. Hence, they would then say that based upon that definition, Manny is the better fighter and actually won the fight. That is what people are doing with this juxtaposition.

Another thing you need to understand is that a lot of Out state Michigan HATES Detroit and the region and will jump at any chance to down it. All you have to do is visit the Michigan forum to note that.....although I will say that sentiment seem to be changing now that the people of the state realize that you cannot sell Michigan without selling Detroit.

Detroit is the "Big Boys" league. Minneapolis is still trying to get there.
The bias may be true, but even accounting for bias, the question seems to be pretty evenly split. I don't think either city is "soundly" in second place.

What exactly do you define as "big boys"? Based on 2012 estimates, Detroit metro (CSA) was 12th in population nationally and MSP metro (CSA) is 15th. In 2013 MSA GDP numbers (may be different for CSA - I don't have the stats), MSP is 13th and Detroit is 14th. Both cities have all four major professional sports teams, with MSP about to get MLS as well. Both have powerhouse research universities in their CSAs (according to ARWU world ranking of research universities, UMich is ranked 22nd and Minnesota is ranked 30th).

Those are the most objective relevant factors I can think of. And judging by those numbers, either they're both in the "Big Boys" league (what I would argue) or neither of them are.
 
Old 05-18-2015, 12:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AT9 View Post
The bias may be true, but even accounting for bias, the question seems to be pretty evenly split. I don't think either city is "soundly" in second place.

What exactly do you define as "big boys"? Based on 2012 estimates, Detroit metro (CSA) was 12th in population nationally and MSP metro (CSA) is 15th. In 2013 MSA GDP numbers (may be different for CSA - I don't have the stats), MSP is 13th and Detroit is 14th. Both cities have all four major professional sports teams, with MSP about to get MLS as well. Both have powerhouse research universities in their CSAs (according to ARWU world ranking of research universities, UMich is ranked 22nd and Minnesota is ranked 30th).

Those are the most objective relevant factors I can think of. And judging by those numbers, either they're both in the "Big Boys" league (what I would argue) or neither of them are.
My most objective relevant factor is that I have lived in both cities. Minneapolis is a nice city, with nice size, but it does not FEEL like a really big metro area. Detroit does. In the early 80's Detroit and Philly matched up pretty good on paper. Then I went to Philly and it just seemed like the Philly area was on another level. The reason why, I believe, due to run on. One area merges into another and those borders on papers means nothing when you are traversing an area. The Detroit area is the same way relative to the Twin Cities. Many areas just merge together and MSA borders are meaningless when the boots hit the ground. Again, let me point out that the twin cities metro area is more than 8,000 square miles, while Detroit's MSA is less than 4,000 and the CSA land area is still less than the MSA of Minneapolis in land area. An 8,000 plus square mile footprint of Detroit is likely around 6 million people....not quite double that of Minneapolis....but putting it in a different league in my opinion. If you take the GDP of that 6 million people area, it would be significantly greater than that of Minneapolis....like the figures have shown that someone posted of the "Greater" Minneapolis GDP vs Greater Detroit GDP.
 
Old 05-18-2015, 12:39 PM
AT9
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
691 posts, read 1,040,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
My most objective relevant factor is that I have lived in both cities. Minneapolis is a nice city, with nice size, but it does not FEEL like a really big metro area. Detroit does. In the early 80's Detroit and Philly matched up pretty good on paper. Then I went to Philly and it just seemed like the Philly area was on another level. The reason why, I believe, due to run on. One area merges into another and those borders on papers means nothing when you are traversing an area. The Detroit area is the same way relative to the Twin Cities. Many areas just merge together and MSA borders are meaningless when the boots hit the ground. Again, let me point out that the twin cities metro area is more than 8,000 square miles, while Detroit's MSA is less than 4,000 and the CSA land area is still less than the MSA of Minneapolis in land area. An 8,000 plus square mile footprint of Detroit is likely around 6 million people....not quite double that of Minneapolis....but putting it in a different league in my opinion. If you take the GDP of that 6 million people area, it would be significantly greater than that of Minneapolis....like the figures have shown that someone posted of the "Greater" Minneapolis GDP vs Greater Detroit GDP.
Part of the reason MSP's metro area is so large is that it includes a bunch of large, rural counties that are sparsely populated but are close enough (and enough commute to the Twin Cities MSA I guess) that they count for the CSA. You'll notice that the CSA is only about 340,000 larger than the MSA, whereas Detroit's CSA is about 1 million larger than its MSA. The furthest reaches of MSP's technical CSA have towns that are over 100 miles from downtown Minneapolis and closer to the SD/ND border! MSP has a ton of rural farmland in the CSA. On the other hand, if Detroit's were similar, you'd be including Lansing and Toledo in the CSA.

My main point is that being closer to other populated areas may make a region more important/influential, but not necessarily a city or its metro. Southeast Michigan is more populated and more powerful than Central Minnesota. Twin Cities vs. Detroit is a much closer comparison. What city "feels" larger is a totally subjective factor.
 
Old 05-18-2015, 01:44 PM
 
9,948 posts, read 6,855,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AT9 View Post
Part of the reason MSP's metro area is so large is that it includes a bunch of large, rural counties that are sparsely populated but are close enough (and enough commute to the Twin Cities MSA I guess) that they count for the CSA. You'll notice that the CSA is only about 340,000 larger than the MSA, whereas Detroit's CSA is about 1 million larger than its MSA. The furthest reaches of MSP's technical CSA have towns that are over 100 miles from downtown Minneapolis and closer to the SD/ND border! MSP has a ton of rural farmland in the CSA. On the other hand, if Detroit's were similar, you'd be including Lansing and Toledo in the CSA.

My main point is that being closer to other populated areas may make a region more important/influential, but not necessarily a city or its metro. Southeast Michigan is more populated and more powerful than Central Minnesota. Twin Cities vs. Detroit is a much closer comparison. What city "feels" larger is a totally subjective factor.
First....don't forget Windsor, Ontario Canada. Secondly, I would bet that 99% of people do not know where their MSA or CSA starts or ends. MSA and CSA has no relevance in the daily lives of people. It has absolutely no practical purpose in the day to day life on an inhabitant of an area. You are making an "on paper" argument and I am making an "in the game" argument. Like I said before, my personal range defines an area to me. My range is 50 minutes one way. If I can get there in 50 minutes....its part of my area of access, if not influence. That is not a perfect metric, by any means, however. The 50 minute limit would stretch the limits of the official Detroit MSA or CSA population, but in LA it would truncate the actual size of the MSA. However, still, when things are more than 50 minutes away, I feel like I am going out of town or out of my way.

To me....people arguing using the metrics of MSA and CSA is like men arguing about what bra size is a better fit for them. Why argue metrics which you don't use in your daily living?
 
Old 05-18-2015, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Detroit
3,654 posts, read 4,579,516 times
Reputation: 2561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I would say that most posters are biased more than I would say that they are not intelligent.....the same with those who picked Manny over Floyd. Many people wanted Floyd to lose just because they do not like his personality. They ignored that Floyd is a more complete fighter, with a great defense as well as offense, faster hand speed and smarter fighter. Then again, people will redefine "what a boxer is or should be" in order to feed their bias. They will define a boxer to be a brawler, a person who just stands still and trade blows with another guy. Hence, they would then say that based upon that definition, Manny is the better fighter and actually won the fight. That is what people are doing with this juxtaposition.

Another thing you need to understand is that a lot of Out state Michigan HATES Detroit and the region and will jump at any chance to down it. All you have to do is visit the Michigan forum to note that.....although I will say that sentiment seem to be changing now that the people of the state realize that you cannot sell Michigan without selling Detroit.

Detroit is the "Big Boys" league. Minneapolis is still trying to get there.
Ohhhh man. Pretty nice comparison to Mayweather. If there are 2 things people hate, it's Floyd Mayweather and Detroit, Michigan. There were quite a few excuses being used in the boxing forum lol. The most popular boxing noob excuse right now is "he ran" despite the fact he threw and landed more punches lol.
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