U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S. > City vs. City
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: What is the Midwest's second city/metropolis?
Greater Detroit 65 41.67%
Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul 91 58.33%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 05-19-2015, 03:35 PM
 
56,236 posts, read 80,370,899 times
Reputation: 12398

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by YIMBY View Post
According to the latest Census estimates (2013), the core cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul (694,952) have a black population of 119,979 (17.3%). Detroit (688,740) has a black population of 553,258 (80.3%). Keep in mind that the makeup of these populations are VERY different.
I know. I was addressing the statement in regards to the start/basis of the Black population in the Twin Cities.

 
Old 05-19-2015, 03:37 PM
 
56,236 posts, read 80,370,899 times
Reputation: 12398
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese plate View Post
Not really! There are about a quarter million blacks in Milwaukee county alone and less than 120,000 in the Twin Cities - over double the amount in Milwaukee, in a metro well under half the TC's size.
Good point, as Metro Milwaukee is about 17-18% Black, which is about the same as the Black percentage in Minneapolis. Milwaukee is about 40-45% Black and many people may not realize that.
 
Old 05-19-2015, 03:54 PM
 
1,224 posts, read 1,288,877 times
Reputation: 1077
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese plate View Post
Not really! There are about a quarter million blacks in Milwaukee county alone and less than 120,000 in the Twin Cities - over double the amount in Milwaukee, in a metro well under half the TC's size.
As of the 2010 Census
Black Population:
Minneapolis - St. Paul MSA: 276,987 (8.4%)
Milwaukee MSA: 270,518 (17.4%)
 
Old 05-19-2015, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis
2,533 posts, read 2,486,696 times
Reputation: 4250
A large part of the conversion seems to have become one of asking which of the two cities has the highest number/percentage of African-Americans. If this is what we're discussing, I think most of us are quite willing to stipulate that the advantage goes to Detroit. It's also not unreasonable to suggest that African-Americans are more likely to prefer Detroit to Minneapolis as a place to live.

In fact, it's perfectly reasonable to argue that those of Lebanese or Greek heritage would also be likely to find Detroit to be more culturally amenable. Likewise, if one is an African immigrant, Hmong, or of Scandinavian descent, Minneapolis would be the likely choice. These are interesting things to look at sociologically, but they are, by their very nature, purely subjective personal assessments.

Both cities have numerous ethnic festivals and other cultural events. I don't see any reason to argue that one city exceeds tho other in that respect. However, MSP does have a distinct advantage in fine arts organizations when judged by number of organizations, budgets, attendance, and arguably, by critical reputation.

Detroit is easily the more important city historically. In many ways, Detroit was long the template for how a city can play a vital role in fulfilling the middle-class American dream. I still think Detroit is emblematic of the greatness of American labor and manufacturing.

I have a lot of friends in Detroit, and I get there at least once a year. I'm rooting for the city's comeback, and I think the city's negative reputation is vastly overstated. However, it's naive to ignore the vast decline of the city over the last few decades. This is essentially a city constructed to contain two million people, which now has only a about a third of that.

Detroit (proper) has a 2014 estimated population of about 690,000. Minneapolis/St Paul (combined cities, proper) has an estimated 2014 population of about 710,000. In terms of population density, Detroit has about 5,200 per sq mile, St Paul has about 5,500, and Minneapolis has about 7,300. So the urban core of MSP is larger than Detroit, and has a noticeably higher population density.

While some may disagree, I would argue that the vitality of the metro area is ultimately dependent upon that of the core city, and while the OP's question relates to much more than the corporate boundaries of these cities, it's hard to ignore the vast differences in the relative health of the urban cores of these two metros. Being dependent upon suburban and exurban areas for economic growth can only last for so long.

Among the top fifty MSAs in the country, only Cleveland and Pittsburgh have slower growth rates than Detroit from 2010-2014 (both have negative rates, while Detroit has 0.01% growth). Minneapolis-St Paul has an MSA growth rate of over 4%. This ranks at the top among Midwestern cities with a population greater than two million, and better than all but Washington among Northeastern cities. Taken to the CSA level, Detroit has actually lost population from 2010 to 2013, while MSP has gained over 3%.

Public transportation in MSP is vastly superior to the network in Detroit. This is vital for everything from getting poor people to their jobs, to circulating visitors to the various cultural and entertainment attractions located within the area. Downtown Minneapolis is the hub of the region. However, a single LRT ride will get you to the other three most important economic and cultural districts: MSP airport/Mall of America, The University of Minnesota, and Downtown St Paul. Virtually every prominent entertainment venue--sports (soon to include an MLS team), music, museums--can be easily accessed by light rail. Again, all of these amenities are contained within the urban core.

Here's how the two cities compare in regards to the presence and function of Global 2000 corporations:

Data sets can be found here:

http://www.lboro.com/gawc/datasets/da26_5.xlsx

http://www.lboro.com/gawc/datasets/da26_6.xlsx


Number of corporate headquarters:

Minneapolis--14
Detroit--7

Number of GICS sectors represented:

Minneapolis--7 (there are only 15 cities in the world represented in more sectors)
Detroit--2

Combined revenue of Global 2000 corporations (in billion):

Minneapolis--397
Detroit--345

Worldwide employees:

Minneapolis--1.1 million (thirteenth in the world)
Detroit-- .57 million (thirty-fifth in the world)

Market value (in billions):

Minneapolis--389 (nineteenth in the world)
Detroit--119 (sixty-fourth in the world)

These stats, combined with per capita GDP and the lowest unemployment rate of any 2 million+ metro in the nation, gives Minneapolis a strong economic advantage over Detroit.

I would argue that Minneapolis has moved past Detroit for the second spot in The Midwest, but I have no disagreement with anyone who argues that Detroit retains a slight advantage--the two cities are close enough to call this in either direction. However, it is ludicrous to argue that, when assessed overall, one of these two cities decisively beats the other.
 
Old 05-19-2015, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis (St. Louis Park)
5,991 posts, read 8,279,055 times
Reputation: 4270
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
To put that into perspective, Minneapolis was around 8% Black and St. Paul was around 5% Black in 1980 or in another way to put this, there were roughly 41,000 Black people out of 640,000 people between the 2 cities. There were roughly 50,000 Black people in the metro out of about 2.2 million people.

There were about 755,000 Black people in the city of Detroit in 1980(63%).
No doubting that, but I said nominal growth as well as percentage growth. In my opinion, it's a right-sizing thing.
 
Old 05-19-2015, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis (St. Louis Park)
5,991 posts, read 8,279,055 times
Reputation: 4270
Quote:
Originally Posted by YIMBY View Post
As of the 2010 Census
Black Population:
Minneapolis - St. Paul MSA: 276,987 (8.4%)
Milwaukee MSA: 270,518 (17.4%)
It's really interesting how few people know about/talk about Milwaukee's black population when its presence is akin to other Midwestern cities with a more storied history (St. Louis, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Indy, KC).
 
Old 05-19-2015, 08:34 PM
 
9,948 posts, read 6,848,303 times
Reputation: 4219
Quote:
Originally Posted by YIMBY View Post
According to the latest Census estimates (2013), the core cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul (694,952) have a black population of 119,979 (17.3%). Detroit (688,740) has a black population of 553,258 (80.3%). Keep in mind that the makeup of these populations are VERY different.
Keep in mind that Detroit's black population peaked in the 2000 census at about 777,000 people. Now, I am going to go on my soap box concerning the inconsistencies between the 2000 Detroit count and the 2010 count. Detroit's actual population count, in 2000, was aprox. 900,000. It was later adjusted upward to 954,000 as a result of a class action suit filed by cities claiming an under count of minorities. Thus, that 54,000 adjustment was mainly minority (black). Also, in 2000, there was a massive effort, by the mayors office (as has been the case with every mayor since and including Coleman A Young) to rally the citizens to be counted.....because funding was tied to the population count.

In 2010, however, there was no adjustment to the official count after the fact, as was the case in 2000 and Dave Bing FAILED to do what his predecessors did in attempting to rally the citizens to be counted. Thus, it is my contention that Detroit population was either over counted in 2000 or under counted in 2010. The Delta of the over or under count was primarily in the black population. One has to understand the number of abandoned dwellings that existed in Detroit between those two enumeration and the high squatter population in the city. Squatters generally do not want to be counted....for obvious reasons.

In light of that, I take all the Detroit numbers with a grain of salt.....I think people will be surprised by the 2020 Detroit count......if they rally the citizens to be counted. It will not show a drop as bad as people probably are predicting and the current estimates use the 2010 counts as its baseline.....to the degree that the baseline is off.....so are the estimates.

On another note....I had stated that there are about 1.2 million blacks in the greater Detroit area. The question is what is the definition of the greater Detroit area? When I used the radius population software, there were 1,056,000 blacks within a 50 mile radius of Detroit (not including Windsor, Ontario Canada). 1.2 million is a 60 mile radius of Detroit and 1.6 million within a 100 mile radius of Detroit. For the twin cities, there were 156,000 in a 60 mile radius and 163,000 in a 100 mile radius. Now, this is likely based upon 2000 data for the races, as I know there are more than 156,000 blacks in the Twin Cities in 2015.
 
Old 05-19-2015, 08:41 PM
 
56,236 posts, read 80,370,899 times
Reputation: 12398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Min-Chi-Cbus View Post
No doubting that, but I said nominal growth as well as percentage growth. In my opinion, it's a right-sizing thing.
That info was just posted to illustrate something Indentured Servant mentioned.

I think it is also important to mention that Minneapolis and St. Paul both have had notable Black communities for a very long time. Just look up Roy Wilkins, Dave Winfield, Sharon Sayles-Belton and Prince, among others, for those that don't know. It is just a matter of the Black population taking off in terms of population around the late 70's/early 80's.

People also forget that North Minneapolis into Brooklyn Center and Brooklyn Park is the epicenter in terms of the Black population in the metro, with the Brooklyn's being 1 and 2 in the state in terms of the municipalities with the highest Black percentages in the state(both about 25-26% Black).
 
Old 05-19-2015, 08:55 PM
 
56,236 posts, read 80,370,899 times
Reputation: 12398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Keep in mind that Detroit's black population peaked in the 2000 census at about 777,000 people. Now, I am going to go on my soap box concerning the inconsistencies between the 2000 Detroit count and the 2010 count. Detroit's actual population count, in 2000, was aprox. 900,000. It was later adjusted upward to 954,000 as a result of a class action suit filed by cities claiming an under count of minorities. Thus, that 54,000 adjustment was mainly minority (black). Also, in 2000, there was a massive effort, by the mayors office (as has been the case with every mayor since and including Coleman A Young) to rally the citizens to be counted.....because funding was tied to the population count.

In 2010, however, there was no adjustment to the official count after the fact, as was the case in 2000 and Dave Bing FAILED to do what his predecessors did in attempting to rally the citizens to be counted. Thus, it is my contention that Detroit population was either over counted in 2000 or under counted in 2010. The Delta of the over or under count was primarily in the black population. One has to understand the number of abandoned dwellings that existed in Detroit between those two enumeration and the high squatter population in the city. Squatters generally do not want to be counted....for obvious reasons.

In light of that, I take all the Detroit numbers with a grain of salt.....I think people will be surprised by the 2020 Detroit count......if they rally the citizens to be counted. It will not show a drop as bad as people probably are predicting and the current estimates use the 2010 counts as its baseline.....to the degree that the baseline is off.....so are the estimates.

On another note....I had stated that there are about 1.2 million blacks in the greater Detroit area. The question is what is the definition of the greater Detroit area? When I used the radius population software, there were 1,056,000 blacks within a 50 mile radius of Detroit (not including Windsor, Ontario Canada). 1.2 million is a 60 mile radius of Detroit and 1.6 million within a 100 mile radius of Detroit. For the twin cities, there were 156,000 in a 60 mile radius and 163,000 in a 100 mile radius. Now, this is likely based upon 2000 data for the races, as I know there are more than 156,000 blacks in the Twin Cities in 2015.
Just something people may not know, but Windsor actually has a notable long time Black population, with some having family on both side of the Detroit River, as most descend from Black runaways from KY and other Sourhern states. Actually, here is the former mayor of nearby Amherstburg ON: Hurst calls it quits after four terms as Amherstburg mayor-With video | Windsor Star

Inventor Elijah McCoy, Pastor/Gospel singer Paul S. Morton and R&B singer/wife of Grant Hill, Tamia are also from that area. So, that community may be surprisingly significant to some people.
 
Old 05-20-2015, 06:03 AM
 
9,948 posts, read 6,848,303 times
Reputation: 4219
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Just something people may not know, but Windsor actually has a notable long time Black population, with some having family on both side of the Detroit River, as most descend from Black runaways from KY and other Sourhern states. Actually, here is the former mayor of nearby Amherstburg ON: Hurst calls it quits after four terms as Amherstburg mayor-With video | Windsor Star

Inventor Elijah McCoy, Pastor/Gospel singer Paul S. Morton and R&B singer/wife of Grant Hill, Tamia are also from that area. So, that community may be surprisingly significant to some people.
Yes....and people often WANT to dismiss the Windsor, Ontario area from Detroit....as if to say that it is not fair to include it's people and economy in with Detroit's. However, that is an extremely naive position given that the areas economy is strongly tied to the US auto industry. Windsor is joined at the hip with Detroit and should really be part of every metric regarding the Detroit area.

I think in the last 20 years Detroit has become the most underestimated, undervalued and marginalized large metro area in the nation. It's way more than the typical American believes about it. All the talk of how Detroit has declined (and the city proper has declined significantly) is assumed of the whole area.

I like pointing out that the Detroit area MSA could, theoretically, grow to well over 5 million people without a single person being added to the population count of SE Michigan. All that it would require is a change in where people commute in the region. That is the only reason that Detroit is not ranked with the 5 million metro areas......commuting patterns in the region.....but it has the people in the area already...many just are not included because of where they commute to daily. The weak commuter rates to Detroit core areas, in my opinion, was due to the massive divestment from the city of Detroit and the overall weak economy of the area.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S. > City vs. City
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. | Please obey Forum Rules | Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top