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View Poll Results: What is the Midwest's second city/metropolis?
Greater Detroit 65 41.67%
Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul 91 58.33%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-04-2015, 09:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John View Post
Well to be fair, I think Greater Minneapolis-Saint Paul has put itself in a position to where it can be considered Greater Detroit's equal at this point in time and both stand well above the rest of the Midwest in their own tier by themselves, just behind Chicago. Both are obviously well ahead of the rest of the pack in the Midwest.

Here, take for example Greater Minneapolis-Saint Paul and Greater Detroit compared to other large Midwestern cities like Greater Cleveland, Greater Saint Louis, Greater Cincinnati, Greater Indianapolis, Greater Columbus, or Greater Kansas City.

Saint Louis, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Columbus, so on all only have 3 foreign destinations, all of them to Toronto, Cancun, and a variation that ranges from Puerto Vallarta to Cozumel depending on which city you're looking at. NONE of them have any non-stop destinations or destinations in general outside of North America.

Whereas Detroit and Minneapolis do. They are large enough and important enough cities to business travelers from other points in the world or immigrants from other points in the world to where they have and can support 27 airline destinations in a foreign country, each. Detroit in particular is impressive, it has 5 foreign flag carriers, that is technically 1 more than a much larger Greater Philadelphia and more than anywhere in the Midwest save for Chicago.

On the cultural front, Zagat, for instance has earmarked both cities as "rising culinary destinations" which says a lot about the growth and innovations in each respective city's food scenes:

https://www.zagat.com/americas-next-...cities/detroit

Frankly, impressive. Detroit came in third, Minneapolis fifth, so roughly about equal there too. Like I said, impressive nonetheless.

MSA:
- Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI: $213.466 Billion
- Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI: $213.258

CSA:
- Greater Detroit: $262.166 Billion
- Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul: $236.389 Billion

Still a couple of years left to go before you catch up and surpass Greater Detroit but Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul is poised to do so at some point in the next 2-4 years. Just presently, Detroit is slightly ahead but both places are neck-in-neck.

Technically Greater Cleveland CSA is just about the exact same size as Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul CSA in terms of population (it is slightly smaller) but Greater Minneapolis' economy is far ahead of Greater Cleveland's $170.063 Billion.

BEA: News Release: GDP by Metropolitan Area, Advance 2012, and Revised 2001–2011

Interesting perspective and good stats!

 
Old 05-04-2015, 11:46 PM
 
5,807 posts, read 10,337,835 times
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Minneapolis is the Midwest's current "second city"

As far as a livable, progressive, educated urban core area Minneapolis clearly stands out uncompeted for the second city moniker. I'm sure its easily #2 in terms of downtown population, etc.

How as far as the CSA, greater metro area, metro Detroit still stands out as second hands down.

Despite how far Detroit proper has fallen, metro Detroit is still huge, and diverse.

Its the only metro area in the midwest that comes close to Chicagoland in terms of the extensiveness and diversity of the suburbs . . . and even exceeds it if you consider Ann Arbor a suburb (it is part of the CSA, even if not considered part of metro Detroit).
 
Old 05-05-2015, 03:52 AM
 
Location: Polish Hill, Pittsburgh, PA
29,615 posts, read 65,640,395 times
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Since this is City-Data I have no interest in comparing Edina/Stillwater, MN to Dearborn/Sterling Heights, MI. While most Americans now appear to prefer living in suburban environments for whatever outdated misconceptions they have about cities I'm not going to take a job offer in an undesirable city with the "silver lining", if you can call it that, of saying "I can commute in from a safe sterile suburb with good public schools a half-hour away". As such I'm not comparing metro area to metro area but rather city proper(s) to city proper(s).

2014 Population Estimate:
Minneapolis: 400,070
St. Paul: 294,873
TOTAL: 694,943
*Given projections and trends it's probably around ~700,000 combined today.

Detroit: 688,701
*Given projections and trends it's probably around ~685,000 today.


^ Just since 2010 the combined city proper population of Minneapolis + St. Paul is now larger than Detroit's city proper population. Before people start griping about how "unfair" it is to gang up two cities against one let's remember that Minneapolis (53.97 square miles) + St. Paul (51.98 square miles) is still much smaller than Detroit (138.75 square miles). Detroit is the "anchor" of its metropolitan area, just as how both Minneapolis AND St. Paul serve as anchors since each city has their own network of suburbs---nobody would want to commute from Edina to St. Paul or from Stillwater to Minneapolis.

Considering the GDP of Minneapolis/St. Paul's MSA has just surpassed the GDP of Detroit's MSA, along with the city core populations of Minneapolis/St. Paul just surpassing the city core population of Detroit I think it is fair to say in 2010 Detroit may have had the slight edge in terms of being the #2 city in the Midwest, but that has JUST now shifted in 2015 to the Twin Cities.

I'm rooting for Detroit. I truly am. Pittsburgh was in similar dire straits not long ago before dramatically reinventing and reinvigorating itself to the point where ~40% of its adults now possess at least a Bachelor's Degree, with companies like Apple, Google, Intel, and Uber setting up shop here, so it can be done. The difference here is that Pittsburgh didn't suffer the same level of "white flight" Detroit did. Like it or not it still takes a lot longer for middle-class whites to consider being "pioneers" in neighborhoods that are >90% black due to perceived or real conceptions that they'd be unwelcome. All of Pittsburgh's worst neighborhoods for violence and decay are majority-African-American. I think what Detroit will need is for upper-middle-class and middle-class professional African-American families to flood back into its neighborhoods FIRST before you have any hopes of whites returning in appreciable numbers. I know I'd personally never buy into a neighborhood that was >90% African-American as a middle-class white gay male because I wouldn't feel welcome. As much as liberal apologists may like to dismiss it there is indeed a resentment towards whites based upon socioeconomics from the black underclass in this country that is just as stinging as the undeserved racism towards blacks from the white underclass. Just look at Baltimore where the rioters were so premature to make the death of Freddy Gray, Jr. a "white against black" issue when three of the six cops charged with killing him were fellow African-Americans.

As long as there are race issues in this country (ON ALL SIDES), Detroit doesn't stand a chance in Hell. Sorry.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis (St. Louis Park)
5,991 posts, read 7,914,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex?Il? View Post
Minneapolis is the Midwest's current "second city"

As far as a livable, progressive, educated urban core area Minneapolis clearly stands out uncompeted for the second city moniker. I'm sure its easily #2 in terms of downtown population, etc.

How as far as the CSA, greater metro area, metro Detroit still stands out as second hands down.

Despite how far Detroit proper has fallen, metro Detroit is still huge, and diverse.

Its the only metro area in the midwest that comes close to Chicagoland in terms of the extensiveness and diversity of the suburbs . . . and even exceeds it if you consider Ann Arbor a suburb (it is part of the CSA, even if not considered part of metro Detroit).
I'd actually argue that MSP is more livable than Chicagoland as well, making it #1 in the Midwest in that regard. But all told I still say MSP deserves to be #3 overall in the Midwest until something more seismic occurs.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Polish Hill, Pittsburgh, PA
29,615 posts, read 65,640,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Min-Chi-Cbus View Post
But all told I still say MSP deserves to be #3 overall in the Midwest until something more seismic occurs.
I don't know if I'd say "seismic". Both MSP and DET are neck-and-neck right now.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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I've never been to the Detroit metro, so I'm completely unfamiliar with the layout of the area. What's the suburban makeup like? Since the old center (Detroit) is basically a dried out husk, is the metro just a huge centerless suburbia blob? Is it similar in organization to Los Angeles, with lots of small suburban centers? Obviously I realize that downtown Detroit is still a player in metro business and commerce, but it seems to be considerably less than in most metros.

I'm not trying to make any jabs, I just sincerely don't understand how a dynamic like that works for a metro area of 4.5 million.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 09:27 AM
 
2,601 posts, read 3,898,303 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennifat View Post
I've never been to the Detroit metro, so I'm completely unfamiliar with the layout of the area. What's the suburban makeup like? Since the old center (Detroit) is basically a dried out husk, is the metro just a huge centerless suburbia blob? Is it similar in organization to Los Angeles, with lots of small suburban centers? Obviously I realize that downtown Detroit is still a player in metro business and commerce, but it seems to be considerably less than in most metros.

I'm not trying to make any jabs, I just sincerely don't understand how a dynamic like that works for a metro area of 4.5 million.

I, too, have never been to Detroit, but I do know that it has some very tony suburbs. Old money, new money, and lots of money.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Polish Hill, Pittsburgh, PA
29,615 posts, read 65,640,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NowInWI View Post
I, too, have never been to Detroit, but I do know that it has some very tony suburbs. Old money, new money, and lots of money.
True, but who moves to a city because of its suburbs?

There are lots of good things happening these days in Downtown and Midtown Detroit. I'm hoping both will continue to gentrify and form a thriving "blob" of sorts that will start radiating its benefits outwards, much as how Center City Philadelphia has been the epicenter of growth radiating gentrification outwards to surrounding neighborhoods.

With that being said Detroit's city proper needs to "bottom out" soon. Pittsburgh nosedived but has now finally hit rock bottom around 307,000 people and has been waffling around that number for a while. I think it is now "right-sized" as many of the people who remain and/or are moving here today are more educated, have higher incomes (leading to higher tax revenues), and less likely to commit crime. It would be nice if we didn't lose 350,000+ people, but we're making lemonade out of lemons. Detroit needs to do the same. They need to have a plan of "We'll probably level off at 600,000 residents, and we need to think of ways to make those 600,000 happier" instead of trying to convince the people who are still hellbent on leaving to stay.

"Good suburbs" are meaningless since EVERY city has "good suburbs". Whenever any Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh debates arise without a doubt Pittsburgh has a more contiguous stretch of revitalized in-city neighborhoods than Cleveland, but Cleveland's network of walkable, diverse, safe, former streetcar suburbs blows Pittsburgh's out of the water. Nevertheless Pittsburgh wins in national perception because its CITY PROPER is booming while Cleveland is just now playing catch-up. Similarly Detroit's suburbs may blow MSP's out of the water, but people just think of MSP's cities as being clean and vibrant while they think of Detroit as being a slum.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 09:48 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,252 posts, read 2,451,528 times
Reputation: 1554
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
True, but who moves to a city because of its suburbs?

There are lots of good things happening these days in Downtown and Midtown Detroit. I'm hoping both will continue to gentrify and form a thriving "blob" of sorts that will start radiating its benefits outwards, much as how Center City Philadelphia has been the epicenter of growth radiating gentrification outwards to surrounding neighborhoods.

With that being said Detroit's city proper needs to "bottom out" soon. Pittsburgh nosedived but has now finally hit rock bottom around 307,000 people and has been waffling around that number for a while. I think it is now "right-sized" as many of the people who remain and/or are moving here today are more educated, have higher incomes (leading to higher tax revenues), and less likely to commit crime. It would be nice if we didn't lose 350,000+ people, but we're making lemonade out of lemons. Detroit needs to do the same. They need to have a plan of "We'll probably level off at 600,000 residents, and we need to think of ways to make those 600,000 happier" instead of trying to convince the people who are still hellbent on leaving to stay.

"Good suburbs" are meaningless since EVERY city has "good suburbs". Whenever any Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh debates arise without a doubt Pittsburgh has a more contiguous stretch of revitalized in-city neighborhoods than Cleveland, but Cleveland's network of walkable, diverse, safe, former streetcar suburbs blows Pittsburgh's out of the water. Nevertheless Pittsburgh wins in national perception because its CITY PROPER is booming while Cleveland is just now playing catch-up. Similarly Detroit's suburbs may blow MSP's out of the water, but people just think of MSP's cities as being clean and vibrant while they think of Detroit as being a slum.
Well said.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 09:52 AM
 
2,391 posts, read 2,117,164 times
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I'd say Detroit. Minneapolis may be on a better trajectory, and many people may consider it a more desirable place to live, but it has not overtaken Detroit just yet.

However, the topic title is a bit loaded... asking which is "soundly" the midwest's second city. Clearly the answer to that is neither as they are relatively close in many metrics.
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