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View Poll Results: What is the Midwest's second city/metropolis?
Greater Detroit 65 41.67%
Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul 91 58.33%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-23-2015, 09:59 AM
 
Location: In the heights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
It is, 300 mile radius, important based upon the criteria of which area is more important. That is why it is listed as one of the selling points in the Detroit area chamber of commerce. In fact, you will find that the 300 mile radius or 150 mile radius population reachable from a city is an often used selling point in a cities chamber of commerce. If it was not an important fact, it would not be mentioned by chambers of commerce. No?

It's my opinion that the US economy peaked when manufacturing was at it's strongest in the US. After the decline of manufacturing, we became a debt based economy where we consume much more than we produce, hence creating massive trade deficits (the largest trade deficit in the nation) and hence the largest debtor nation on the planet. Why has China boomed? It has boomed because of its manufacturing exports. Germany is strong because its manufacturing exports. Exporting more than you import, in dollar value, is how income and wealth is transferred from one country to the next. Thus, the real meat and potatoes economy is that which creates exports that bring monies into the country from outside the country, increasing the overall income of the country. In that respect, exports, the Detroit Metro economy still brings in twice that of the Twin Cities economy. Trade.gov - Top 50 Metro Area Exporters
300 mile radius is not a metropolitan area. Metropolitan areas can benefit from proximity, but those simply aren't part of the area and aren't really directly part of this comparison. It's pretty simple.

It's my opinion that the US economy peaked when Europe was still recovering from a succession of two massive wars and a rapid pullout from the colonies and while the countries of Asia, Africa and Latin America were still either just forming or were trying to pull themselves up into the industrial age and modern statehood. The Pax Americana was a blip that occurred due to very favorable global conditions which are now no longer directly in its favor and as other countries pick the relatively low hanging fruit of setting up manufacturing when there are huge populations of relatively cheap labor while the other end has high technology and automation massively replacing workers, US manufacturing jobs were and continue to be squeezed by both ends more and more.

So what makes sense? Having a massively diversified economy--which is what the Twin Cities have. It makes for a much more resilient local economy even when there is an overall bust in the national economy.

I understand your loyalty and love for Detroit. That's great. I think it's terrible what's happened to Detroit and there is a lot of room for hope. However, I think you're brushing aside a lot of points other people are making for a very narrowly focused idea of what being 2nd overall in the Midwest is (despite there being an actual explicit criteria of sorts by the OP). Regardless of whatever the internal social politics of any city, general clout of a place anywhere in the world has probably its closest proxy in economic indicators and pretty much nothing else comes close.

The Twin Cities are, even when we include Windsor, probably at this point the one with the larger economic clout at this point, and if not now, then very soon. It's also still growing at a faster pace while setting up more infrastructure (such as its growing mass transit infrastructure in terms of the light rail and commuter rail system--one of the recent extensions extends downtown to downtown between Minneapolis and St. Paul which means an even more cohesive central core) and with more skyscrapers currently under construction. Additionally, the entire state of Minnesota is actually doing quite well overall and much of that benefits the Twin Cities as St. Paul is the capital (political influence also matters and the Twin Cities arguably has more so given it being the location of the state capital).

So perhaps maybe a more interesting and possibly objective argument would be to compare what kind of infrastructural improvements are being built in the greater Detroit area (including Windsor) or highlights of different industries springing up in the area or new large construction projects. What about rehabilitation of massive older buildings? Even something like personal anecdotes or pictures of the two different areas within the last year would be pretty good. I know you've mentioned being in the Twin Cities before (and perhaps living there?), but how long ago was that? Given the pace of development and growth in recent years, and that the Twin Cities has only recently passed the Detroit metro in terms of GMP, it'd be interesting to hear about accounts of people who have visited both cities very recently.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-23-2015 at 10:20 AM..

 
Old 05-23-2015, 12:43 PM
 
8,669 posts, read 6,344,426 times
Reputation: 3766
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
300 mile radius is not a metropolitan area. Metropolitan areas can benefit from proximity, but those simply aren't part of the area and aren't really directly part of this comparison. It's pretty simple.

It's my opinion that the US economy peaked when Europe was still recovering from a succession of two massive wars and a rapid pullout from the colonies and while the countries of Asia, Africa and Latin America were still either just forming or were trying to pull themselves up into the industrial age and modern statehood. The Pax Americana was a blip that occurred due to very favorable global conditions which are now no longer directly in its favor and as other countries pick the relatively low hanging fruit of setting up manufacturing when there are huge populations of relatively cheap labor while the other end has high technology and automation massively replacing workers, US manufacturing jobs were and continue to be squeezed by both ends more and more.

So what makes sense? Having a massively diversified economy--which is what the Twin Cities have. It makes for a much more resilient local economy even when there is an overall bust in the national economy.

I understand your loyalty and love for Detroit. That's great. I think it's terrible what's happened to Detroit and there is a lot of room for hope. However, I think you're brushing aside a lot of points other people are making for a very narrowly focused idea of what being 2nd overall in the Midwest is (despite there being an actual explicit criteria of sorts by the OP). Regardless of whatever the internal social politics of any city, general clout of a place anywhere in the world has probably its closest proxy in economic indicators and pretty much nothing else comes close.

The Twin Cities are, even when we include Windsor, probably at this point the one with the larger economic clout at this point, and if not now, then very soon. It's also still growing at a faster pace while setting up more infrastructure (such as its growing mass transit infrastructure in terms of the light rail and commuter rail system--one of the recent extensions extends downtown to downtown between Minneapolis and St. Paul which means an even more cohesive central core) and with more skyscrapers currently under construction. Additionally, the entire state of Minnesota is actually doing quite well overall and much of that benefits the Twin Cities as St. Paul is the capital (political influence also matters and the Twin Cities arguably has more so given it being the location of the state capital).

So perhaps maybe a more interesting and possibly objective argument would be to compare what kind of infrastructural improvements are being built in the greater Detroit area (including Windsor) or highlights of different industries springing up in the area or new large construction projects. What about rehabilitation of massive older buildings? Even something like personal anecdotes or pictures of the two different areas within the last year would be pretty good. I know you've mentioned being in the Twin Cities before (and perhaps living there?), but how long ago was that? Given the pace of development and growth in recent years, and that the Twin Cities has only recently passed the Detroit metro in terms of GMP, it'd be interesting to hear about accounts of people who have visited both cities very recently.

I am well aware of how America had risen to its economic zenith, and you are totally correct. However, that does not change the fact that manufacturing led the way of that boom....after all....it was still the industrial era.

I do not even know why we are debating this, to tell the truth. Some posted the data of the GDP ranking of greater areas and Detroits was ahead of Minneapolis. There is no way the the Twin Cities economic output is greater than the Detroit, Windsor, Ann Arbor area combined, which by the way has a smaller geographic footprint than the Twin Cities MSA. Now, if you truncated the Twin Cities, by taking away the St. Paul component of the area, based upon some formula the population split by rivers cannot be counted together, then the Minneapolis MSA and its GDP would be comparable to St. Louis of Cleveland. Then you would say, but there is the St Paul area right next to us....and that really should be counted too. Well, that is the case for the Detroit region.....a lot of population is simply not counted based upon the "formula", that is heavily dependent upon commuter patterns and rates between counties. The Detroit area, unrestricted by commuter rates, and international boundaries, has a greater population and a greater GDP for the area. Yes, I would agree that the Twin Cities has a larger per capita GDP, but not an overall greater GDP.

Now, I know the OP listed his or her criteria.....but I am not bound to accept that such criteria is what makes a place a second city OVERALL. I mean....the Detroit area has a lot more people and the area produces a higher GDP. Game OVER! The only way the Twin Cities tops Detroit in GDP is when you are taking the 4.2 million definition of the area......but again this ignores that the cost of living is higher in the Twin Cities as well as wages, which creates a higher dollar value of economic transactions, even if the nature of the transactions are the same. For example, a fast food worker in the twin cities probably makes more money and has to pay a higher rent or mortgage on average, and those transactions, even if the exact same in number as for fast food workers in Detroit, would contribute more to GDP of the Twin Cities that Detroit fast food workers economic transactions contribute to its GDP...so that makes the Twin Cities 2nd just because its cost of living is higher? Total BS!

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-23-2015 at 12:56 PM..
 
Old 05-23-2015, 03:51 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,143 posts, read 21,752,589 times
Reputation: 10223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I am well aware of how America had risen to its economic zenith, and you are totally correct. However, that does not change the fact that manufacturing led the way of that boom....after all....it was still the industrial era.

I do not even know why we are debating this, to tell the truth. Some posted the data of the GDP ranking of greater areas and Detroits was ahead of Minneapolis. There is no way the the Twin Cities economic output is greater than the Detroit, Windsor, Ann Arbor area combined, which by the way has a smaller geographic footprint than the Twin Cities MSA. Now, if you truncated the Twin Cities, by taking away the St. Paul component of the area, based upon some formula the population split by rivers cannot be counted together, then the Minneapolis MSA and its GDP would be comparable to St. Louis of Cleveland. Then you would say, but there is the St Paul area right next to us....and that really should be counted too. Well, that is the case for the Detroit region.....a lot of population is simply not counted based upon the "formula", that is heavily dependent upon commuter patterns and rates between counties. The Detroit area, unrestricted by commuter rates, and international boundaries, has a greater population and a greater GDP for the area. Yes, I would agree that the Twin Cities has a larger per capita GDP, but not an overall greater GDP.

Now, I know the OP listed his or her criteria.....but I am not bound to accept that such criteria is what makes a place a second city OVERALL. I mean....the Detroit area has a lot more people and the area produces a higher GDP. Game OVER! The only way the Twin Cities tops Detroit in GDP is when you are taking the 4.2 million definition of the area......but again this ignores that the cost of living is higher in the Twin Cities as well as wages, which creates a higher dollar value of economic transactions, even if the nature of the transactions are the same. For example, a fast food worker in the twin cities probably makes more money and has to pay a higher rent or mortgage on average, and those transactions, even if the exact same in number as for fast food workers in Detroit, would contribute more to GDP of the Twin Cities that Detroit fast food workers economic transactions contribute to its GDP...so that makes the Twin Cities 2nd just because its cost of living is higher? Total BS!
Great that you're aware--so why keep bringing it up? It's history and not how global economics works. Manufacturing magically reappearing centered in the US and the conditions of the immediately post World War I and then World War II as well as the immediate turmoil of decolonialization are not going to suddenly happen again.

?

Here's the BEA's report in 2014 of US metro areas by GMP (which tallies up to 2013):
http://bea.gov/newsreleases/regional..._metro0914.pdf

MSP is at: 227,793
Detroit is at: 224,726

However, those are MSAs (and obviously the list does not include Windsor since it's a US bureau). So, pretty close, but MSP is still ahead. I think if you want to go CSA (for Detroit would include Flint, Ann Arbor, Monroe, and Adrian MSAs; for the Twin Cities would include St. Cloud, Faribault-Northfield, Red Wing, and Hutchinson MSAs), then Detroit, especially after considering Windsor, is up ahead. However, it looks like Twin Cities is economically a bit healthier so I stand by what I said in terms of it being "the one with the larger economic clout at this point, and if not now, then very soon." Of course, I might be wrong. Things might turn for both or either in any direction quickly--which then boils back down to the statement NEITHER is soundly second place at this point. Basically, are we talking the MSA in the US or the CSA (or the MSA/CSA plus Canada)? If these factors means placing one above the other, and almost never by a particularly large margin, then I don't see either being soundly second place.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-23-2015 at 04:28 PM..
 
Old 05-23-2015, 03:52 PM
 
150 posts, read 132,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Lol....you are late to the party. I have already stated that such was the sentiment of many whites....and you just cosigned it. Minneapolis is the second city from the white perspective (but not exclusively) because most whites see no value in the black population that is beneficial to them in anyway and since much of the Detroit area and is suburbs are hyper segregated.....whites do not feel they have urban access...and that is what whites desire these days....urbanity....but white urbanity. Detroit offers little of that....lol. For black people though, if you are going to be marketable in a professional sense, you HAVE to interact and find value in the white community, plus, you interact and find value in the black community as well. Thus, we partake in the WHOLE area....where as many whites have no need or desire for the black community....and many are scared to death of it anyway. So are far as they are concerned you can just minus the majority of the black population and the geographic area that they occupy....and when you add things up after that......Detroit takes a second place to Minneapolis, but only as the result of underestimating, undervaluing and marginalizing the black community.
Can you blame me?
 
Old 05-23-2015, 04:38 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,143 posts, read 21,752,589 times
Reputation: 10223
Also, I was thinking about what people on this forum want. Skyscrapers! What a wonderful measurement of figuratively whipping it out and comparing lengths as an indicator of might and power! Really good proxy here.

Here's one for:
Minneapolis
St. Paul
and Minnesota in general (clear out the ones that aren't in the metro)

Detroit (includes a list for the previously mentioned Detroit CSA)
Windsor (which was not included in the previous article)

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-23-2015 at 05:00 PM..
 
Old 05-23-2015, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Tokyo, Japan
6,479 posts, read 7,719,547 times
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I guess the Midwestern United States has two second cities.
 
Old 05-23-2015, 05:00 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,143 posts, read 21,752,589 times
Reputation: 10223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John View Post
I guess the Midwestern United States has two second cities.
Yea, like a tier--after Chicago. How exciting!
 
Old 05-23-2015, 06:41 PM
 
1,653 posts, read 1,943,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
A good economy, in my opinion, has nothing to do with what makes a city the second city of the Midwest. To me, its still about the people.
And our larger number of people are underperforming, less productive, less educated, more violent people than the Twin Cities smaller number of people. I'll take the Minnesota cities

It is embarrassing that we have 800,000 more people in our metro area than Minneapolis, but we produce LESS. Its an indictment on both black and white folk in the area.
 
Old 05-23-2015, 06:55 PM
 
1,653 posts, read 1,943,954 times
Reputation: 1563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Lol....you are late to the party. I have already stated that such was the sentiment of many whites....and you just cosigned it. Minneapolis is the second city from the white perspective (but not exclusively) because most whites see no value in the black population that is beneficial to them in anyway and since much of the Detroit area and is suburbs are hyper segregated.....whites do not feel they have urban access...and that is what whites desire these days....urbanity....but white urbanity. Detroit offers little of that....lol. For black people though, if you are going to be marketable in a professional sense, you HAVE to interact and find value in the white community, plus, you interact and find value in the black community as well. Thus, we partake in the WHOLE area....where as many whites have no need or desire for the black community....and many are scared to death of it anyway. So are far as they are concerned you can just minus the majority of the black population and the geographic area that they occupy....and when you add things up after that......Detroit takes a second place to Minneapolis, but only as the result of underestimating, undervaluing and marginalizing the black community.
White folks find little value in the vast majority of Detroit because - there is little of value in the city and the VIOLENT CRIME IS TOO HIGH. We don't have major aspects of urbanity like rapid transit and vibrant neighborhood commercial districts with businesses that would interest ANYBODY.

Just look at the Bings Maps view of the Grand River/Oakman commercial district. Closely look at the businesses that exist:

https://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=42...82&FORM=LMLTCC

In any other city, this would be thriving commercial district with cafes, restaurants. This district offers a phamarcy and a church and about 15 boarded buildings and vacant lots. Nobody would be attracted to that area.

Also, whites have flocked to other predominantly black cities lately (see Atlanta and Washington, DC, even New Orleans).
 
Old 05-23-2015, 06:57 PM
 
52,659 posts, read 75,524,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
White folks find little value in the vast majority of Detroit because - there is little of value in the city and the VIOLENT CRIME IS TOO HIGH. We don't have major aspects of urbanity like rapid transit and vibrant neighborhood commercial districts with businesses that would interest ANYBODY.

Just look at the Bings Maps view of the Grand River/Oakman commercial district. Closely look at the businesses that exist:

https://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=42...82&FORM=LMLTCC

In any other city, this would be thriving commercial district with cafes, restaurants. This district offers a phamarcy and a church and about 15 boarded buildings and vacant lots. Nobody would be attracted to that area.

Also, whites have flocked to other predominantly black cities lately (see Atlanta and Washington, DC, even New Orleans).
I would think that people would go to Woodward within the city. In a few years, Detroit's Woodward Avenue corridor will look very different | MLive.com

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