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View Poll Results: What is the Midwest's second city/metropolis?
Greater Detroit 65 41.67%
Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul 91 58.33%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-05-2015, 10:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
True, but who moves to a city because of its suburbs?

There are lots of good things happening these days in Downtown and Midtown Detroit. I'm hoping both will continue to gentrify and form a thriving "blob" of sorts that will start radiating its benefits outwards, much as how Center City Philadelphia has been the epicenter of growth radiating gentrification outwards to surrounding neighborhoods.

With that being said Detroit's city proper needs to "bottom out" soon. Pittsburgh nosedived but has now finally hit rock bottom around 307,000 people and has been waffling around that number for a while. I think it is now "right-sized" as many of the people who remain and/or are moving here today are more educated, have higher incomes (leading to higher tax revenues), and less likely to commit crime. It would be nice if we didn't lose 350,000+ people, but we're making lemonade out of lemons. Detroit needs to do the same. They need to have a plan of "We'll probably level off at 600,000 residents, and we need to think of ways to make those 600,000 happier" instead of trying to convince the people who are still hellbent on leaving to stay.

"Good suburbs" are meaningless since EVERY city has "good suburbs". Whenever any Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh debates arise without a doubt Pittsburgh has a more contiguous stretch of revitalized in-city neighborhoods than Cleveland, but Cleveland's network of walkable, diverse, safe, former streetcar suburbs blows Pittsburgh's out of the water. Nevertheless Pittsburgh wins in national perception because its CITY PROPER is booming while Cleveland is just now playing catch-up. Similarly Detroit's suburbs may blow MSP's out of the water, but people just think of MSP's cities as being clean and vibrant while they think of Detroit as being a slum.
Suburbs were mentioned in the OP, so commenting on them, was relevant. If I were to ever live in Detroit, I would live in a suburb...especially with a family. I mentioned the wealth in some suburbs, because, as you stated, people think of Detroit as being a slum.

 
Old 05-05-2015, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Miami Beach, FL/Tokyo, Japan
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I would still say Detroit is the second, but it's becoming blurred, and everyday Minneapolis-St Paul makes strides, at least in a forward direction and Detroit in a backwards direction.

What Detroit has with it is history, notoriety, a big important industry, central location (close to more cities, closer to important cities), connected with Canada, more people (in the MSA and CSA).

What Minneapolis has is the economy and the momentum. I don't think that's enough yet to overcome Detroit's population, her historical clout, but history fades the farther it's in the past, and becomes less important. When Minneapolis MSA comes within 90% of Detroit's MSA population, it will be the second city in the midwest.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 10:33 AM
 
Location: In the heights
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Neither is soundly second place right now. The two's overall strengths and weaknesses basically even each other out to about parity. However, echoing everyone else here, given the two's trajectories, it'd be surprising if the Twin Cities did not become solidly second by the close of this decade. Detroit might be doing a turnaround, but even if it doing so, it'd take a while to really overcome the inertia from descending for so long.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 10:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennifat View Post
I've never been to the Detroit metro, so I'm completely unfamiliar with the layout of the area. What's the suburban makeup like? Since the old center (Detroit) is basically a dried out husk, is the metro just a huge centerless suburbia blob? Is it similar in organization to Los Angeles, with lots of small suburban centers? Obviously I realize that downtown Detroit is still a player in metro business and commerce, but it seems to be considerably less than in most metros.

I'm not trying to make any jabs, I just sincerely don't understand how a dynamic like that works for a metro area of 4.5 million.
Metro Detroit has the same level of diversity in suburbs and surrounding cities that is more typical of the top five - seven metro areas of the country than of the dozens of < 2 million pop metro areas.

Yes, you have some of the glitziest suburbs like Bloomfield Hills or Birmingham as well as the old money enclaves of the Gross Pointes.

but you also have the more funky and eclectic pedestrian, thriving downtown suburbs like Royal Oak and Ferndale,

you have ethnic enclaves like Dearborn which has the largest Arab population in the country, (as well as Hamtramck which is Polish - United Nations, but not really a suburbs, more of a Detroit neighborhood that resisted annexation),

you certainly have crappy suburbs, as well as typical several suburbs with large suburban office complexes and malls.

Then to top it off, you have one of the most presitigious public universities in the country located in a beautiful college town on the edge of the metro area

as well as an opportunity to experience a little bit of Canada across the border in Windsor.

Although in order for the region to be healthy, the major city needs to be healthy too, it is certainly true that metro Detroit does have more to offer in the surrounding areas than many other metro areas.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Miami Beach, FL/Tokyo, Japan
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Hamtramck is no longer Polish or Ukrainian, it's largely Muslim but the Muslims tend to be from the Balkans (Bosniaks, Albanians) or Bangladeshis. There is also some Arabs there as well. And American-Blacks ofc. While officially a suburb, I don't count Hamtramck as such since other than the color of the street signs (and ofc the political day to day realities of which school district, taxes, etc) it's seamless with Detroit.

Grosse Pointe(s) is somewhat similar. Except demographically, and economically a stark contrast to Detroit, that it's easy to see the border between Detroit and Grosse Pointe. Just look for the area to become greener, more trees, well kept houses, white population versus black population and ofc the signs are in black instead of green.

Most of Detroit suburbs are bland, let's be honest, the entire metro is dying not just Detroit. Grosse Pointe once upon a day used to be one of the wealthiest suburbs in the USA, now they wouldn't crack the top 100. Bloomfield Hills has overtaken the Pointes, but even she is far from some of the wealthiest suburbs in other US cities.

It's time for people in Detroit/suburbs to stop living in the past. The city is dying.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennifat View Post
I've never been to the Detroit metro, so I'm completely unfamiliar with the layout of the area. What's the suburban makeup like? Since the old center (Detroit) is basically a dried out husk, is the metro just a huge centerless suburbia blob? Is it similar in organization to Los Angeles, with lots of small suburban centers? Obviously I realize that downtown Detroit is still a player in metro business and commerce, but it seems to be considerably less than in most metros.

I'm not trying to make any jabs, I just sincerely don't understand how a dynamic like that works for a metro area of 4.5 million.
It's pretty similar to Los Angeles (and quite a few other industrial cities) though of course the suburban centers aren't quite as dense. But still, there's a lot of random high rises all over the place. A good amount of Detroit's suburbs have either a substantial business or industrial district. Suburb to suburb commutes are very common and there's actually a lot of congestion in places that otherwise aren't built for it. The only true commuter suburbs are either very small or out in the fringes and generally aren't the ones people often mention anyway.

In fact, GM is the only auto company HQ'd in Detroit. Ford is in Dearborn (though only less than a mile from Detroit city limits), and Chrysler is way out in Auburn Hills. GM's Tech Center is in Warren and takes up a whole square mile. The dozen or so car factories are scattered throughout the metro area, usually along the railroad corridors, often with car suppliers and other industrial businesses in the same corridor. Overall, there was just no real incentive to live near downtown or even visit downtown if most of your time is going to be spent out in the suburbs anyway. Even today, many people who live in Metro Detroit either very rarely or not at all go into the city either due to no desire or no need to.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjHXSGJRR0
 
Old 05-05-2015, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDPMiami View Post
Hamtramck is no longer Polish or Ukrainian, it's largely Muslim but the Muslims tend to be from the Balkans (Bosniaks, Albanians) or Bangladeshis. There is also some Arabs there as well. And American-Blacks ofc. While officially a suburb, I don't count Hamtramck as such since other than the color of the street signs (and ofc the political day to day realities of which school district, taxes, etc) it's seamless with Detroit.

Grosse Pointe(s) is somewhat similar. Except demographically, and economically a stark contrast to Detroit, that it's easy to see the border between Detroit and Grosse Pointe. Just look for the area to become greener, more trees, well kept houses, white population versus black population and ofc the signs are in black instead of green.

Most of Detroit suburbs are bland, let's be honest, the entire metro is dying not just Detroit. Grosse Pointe once upon a day used to be one of the wealthiest suburbs in the USA, now they wouldn't crack the top 100. Bloomfield Hills has overtaken the Pointes, but even she is far from some of the wealthiest suburbs in other US cities.

It's time for people in Detroit/suburbs to stop living in the past. The city is dying.
Grosse Pointe largely was considered affluent because of the numbers game. When the area had a lower population, the median income was higher. As the area grew, new development wasn't often as expensive as the old money mansions, but still solid middle class. This makes it look like the median income is flat and not growing even though the population has been growing.

Bloomfield Hills is kinda of in a similar boat, and never really was among the wealthiest suburbs in the country expect by per capita; low population, high median income. There's plenty other notable cities and suburbs with higher populations as well as high median incomes.

Obviously you haven't driving through Oakland County yet to see that the area is far from dying. Either that or all the construction going on is being done with fake money. Even many parts of Wayne County and most of Macomb County has resumed construction that was halted during the recession. Detroit is pretty much the only outlier in the region that hasn't kept up.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Yeah, about some of those Detroit area suburbs (average income):
Quote:
Detroit: 7
Barton Hills, MI $398,981
Lake Angelus, MI $352,431
Village of Grosse Pointe Shores, MI $254,170
Bloomfield Hills, MI $247,865
Franklin, MI $238,523
Orchard Lake Village, MI $210,914
Bingham Farms, MI $218,726
In the process it tops these two:
Quote:
Dallas/Fort Worth: 6
Westlake, TX $532,045
Westover Hills, TX $424,345
Highland Park, TX $374,208
University Park, TX $273,583
Southlake, TX $228,840
Colleyville, TX $202,607

Seattle: 6
Hunts Point, WA $421,503
Medina, WA $332,002
Clyde Hill, WA $313,023
Yarrow Point, WA $269,700
Woodway, WA $237,003
Mercer Island, WA $223,343
Sets itself apart from other Midwestern competition (save for, you guessed it, Chicago and the city it is being compared to right now -- Minneapolis):
Quote:
Saint Louis: 7
Huntleigh, MO $400,573
Country Life Acres, MO $319,307
Town & Country, MO $282,685
Ladue, MO $271,196
Westwood, MO $260,224
Clarkson, MO $252,305
Frontenac, MO $250,483

Cleveland: 6
Hunting Valley, OH $574,294
Bentleyville, OH $303,845
Moreland Hills, OH $244,524
Gates Mills, OH $232,024
Waite Hill, OH $224,064
Pepper Pike, OH $218,630

Milwaukee: 5
Chenequa, WI $359,735
River Hills, WI $302,311
Oconomowoc Lake, WI $267,606
Lac La Belle, WI $248,080
Wind Point, WI $230,209

Cincinnati: 4
The Village of Indian Hill, OH $366,623
Coldstream, OH $351,842
Concorde Hills, OH $285,281
Rabbit Hash, KY $238,319

Indianapolis: 4
Crows Nest, IN $694,378
Williams Creek, IN $247,080
North Crows Nest, IN $233,250
Meridian Hills, IN $225,383

Pittsburgh: 4
Sewickley Heights, PA $334,457
Fox Chapel, PA $279,114
Edgeworth, PA $238,143
Bradford Woods, PA $204,248

Kansas City: 3
Mission Hills, KS $340,849
Mission Woods, KS $301,272
Loch Lloyd, MO $231,141

Columbus: 1
New Albany, OH $252,702
Here is a list of the only cities that top Greater Detroit actually when it comes to "elite/exclusive suburbs" in the United States:
Quote:
New York: 112
Centre Island, NY $485,295
Sands Point, NY $431,642
Mill Neck, NY $412,736
Old Field, NY $411,787
Brookville, NY $400,525
Plandome, NY $398,831
Oyster Bay Cove, NY $395,315
Hewlett Bay Park, NY $386,754
Scarsdale, NY $386,525
Cove Neck, NY $384,606
Bronxville, NY $383,858
Matinecock, NY $370,190
Old Greenwich, CT $368,538
Muttontown, NY $366,205
Munsey Park, NY $363,133
Short Hills, NJ $356,024
Old Westbury, NY $354,552
Plandome Manor, NY $353,100
Lloyd Harbor, NY $348,006
Alpine, NJ $334,534
Darien, CT $332,237
Tuxedo Park, NY $329,755
Larchmont, NY $327,306
Hewlett Neck, NY $327,093
Laurel Hollow, NY $326,518
Rye, NY $320,844
Roslyn Harbor, NY $320,423
Oak Beach-Captree, NY $315,911
Scotts Corners, NY $313,303
Far Hills, NJ $312,956
Hewlett Harbor, NY $311,464
Mantoloking, NJ $310,847
Essex Falls, NJ $310,426
Bedford, NY $310,053
Woodsborough, NY $299,987
Upper Brookville, NY $299,856
East Hills, NY $296,818
Westport, CT $295,011
Saddle River, NJ $293,518
Kensington, NY $293,018
Roslyn Estates, NY $291,249
Southport, CT $285,521
Asharoken, NY $284,949
Southampton, NY $283,265
Briarcliff Manor, NY $281,428
Huntington Bay, NY $281,054
Armonk, NY $280,913
Pelham Manor, NY $279,977
Lake Success, NY $278,641
Water Mill, NY $276,544
Flower Hill, NY $272,695
Plandome Heights, NY $271,765
Greenville, NY $271,522
Riverside, CT $270,946
Old Brookville, NY $266,773
Mountain Lakes, NJ $264,733
Kings Point, NY $263,629
Rumson, NJ $260,038
North Hills, NY $255,835
Pine Hill, NY $255,031
Grand View-on-Hudson, NY $252,932
Upper Saddle River, NJ $251,536
Harbor Hills, NY $250,710
Franklin Lakes, NJ $249,429
Nissequogue, NY $248,579
Great Neck Estates, NY $248,445
Rye Brook, NY $246,175
Irvington, NY $244,318
Rockleigh, NJ $244,217
Harrison, NY $242,589
North Haven, NY $241,964
Golden's Bridge, NY $240,442
Upper Montclair, NJ $239,296
Belle Terre, NY $235,738
Summit, NJ $235,662
Poquott, NY $233,983
Cos Cob, CT $231,443
Malverne Park Oaks, NY $231,406
Ridgecrest, NJ $231,008
Greenwich, CT $228,379
Spring Borough, NJ $227,541
North Caldwell, NJ $227,394
Point Lookout, NY $226,955
Mendham, NJ $225,719
Head on Harbor, NY $223,946
Bernardsville, NJ $223,074
Garden City, NY $223,052
Demarest, NJ $220,594
Woodbury, NY $220,384
Northwest Harbor, NY $219,565
Eatons Neck, NY $218,684
Great Neck. NY $217,762
Chatham, NJ $217,172
Westfield, NJ $216,390
Sea Bright, NJ $216,304
Cannondale, CT $215,993
Montebello, NY $213,660
Glen Rock, NJ $212,299
Pelham, NY $211,610
Bay Head, NJ $211,284
Saddle Rock, NY $210,732
Woodcliff Lake, NJ $209,783
Hastings-on-Hudson, NY $205,654
East Williston, NY $206,647
Great River, NY $205,579
Allendale, NJ $205,447
Atlantic Beach, NY $204,694
Wilton Center, CT $204,387
Baxter Estates, NY $204,162
Old Tappan, NJ $203,133
Tenafly, NJ $202,548
Cold Spring Harbor, NY $201,693

San Francisco Bay Area: 39
Diablo, CA $556,663
Atherton, CA $391,633
Portola Valley, CA $369,825
Los Altos Hills, CA $353,977
Woodside, CA $351,533
Hillsborough, CA $347,658
Tiburon, CA $311,451
Belvedere, CA $307,555
Ross, CA $306,164
Sereno del Mar, CA $298,816
Pasatiempo, CA $270,080
Kenwood, CA $270,675
Rutherford, CA $265,298
Shell Ridge, CA $254,066
Kentfield, CA $261,712
Ladera, CA $259,509
West Menlo Park, CA $257,403
Loyola, CA $256,619
Piedmont, CA $248,737
Norris Canyon, CA $248,015
Monte Sereno, CA $245,776
Blackhawk, CA $241,646
Orinda, CA $240,131
Saratoga, CA $229,610
Los Altos, CA $227,861
Silverado Resort, CA $227,766
Sleepy Hollow, CA $225,490
Alamo, CA $220,862
Dillon Beach, CA $222,210
Emerald Lake Hills, CA $219,300
Stanford, CA $216,541
Lafayette, CA $209,874
Palo Alto, CA $208,153
Mill Valley, CA $207,794
Menlo Park, CA $206,670
Castle Hill, CA $203,432
Acalanes Ridge, CA $203,178
Los Gatos, CA $202,375
Reliez Valley, CA $201,391

Chicago: 25
Winnetka, IL $363,776
Kenilworth, IL $360,649
Bannockburn, IL $351,464
Glencoe, IL $335,542
Dune Acres, IN $330,160
Lake Forest, IL $309,825
Hinsdale, IL $280,695
Burr Ridge, IL $277,320
Barrington Hills, IL $260,232
Northfield, IL $255,512
North Barrington, IL $254,014
Oak Brook, IL $249,167
South Barrington, IL $248,794
Wilmette, IL $229,826
Green oaks, IL $225,089
River Forest, IL $225,045
Wayne, IL $223,830
Kildeer, IL $220,911
Long Grove, IL $217,685
Riverwoods, IL $216,841
Golf, IL $214,528
Clarendon HIlls, IL $209,717
Lake Bluff, IL $209,296
Lake Barrington, IL $205,709
Inverness, IL $202,200

Washington DC-Baltimore: 24
Chevy Chase Village, MD $490,928
Somerset, MD $344,324
Brookmont, MD $314,016
Chevy Chase Section Three, MD $311,861
Chevy Chase, MD $310,196
Chevy Chase Section Five, MD $305,118
Travilah, MD $293,799
McLean, VA $276,249
Chevy Chase(Census Place), MD $262,375
Martin's Addition, MD $298,470
Great Falls, VA $281,855
Potomac, MD $270,499
Bethesda, MD $251,880
Chevy Chase View, MD $246,177
Glen Echo, MD $237,093
Wolf Trap, VA $228,559
Cabin John, MD $222,171
Belle Haven, VA $215,802
Darnestown, MD $209,978
North Chevy Chase, MD $208,318
Crosspointe, VA $206,423
Woodmore, MD $203,905
Floris, VA $203,368
Mantua, VA $203,160

Los Angeles: 16
Hidden Hills, CA $392,679
Rolling Hills, CA $376,925
Lake Sherwood, CA $298,863
Malibu, CA $276,007
Palos Verdes Estates, CA $271,908
Indian Wells, CA $265,461
Manhattan Beach, CA $255,853
San Marino, CA $246,465
Newport Beach, CA $241,005
Bell Canyon, CA $239,203
La Canada Flintridge, CA $237,475
Laguna Beach, CA $227,969
Rolling Hills Estates, CA $223,879
Bradbury, CA $216,316
Coto de Caza, CA $215,556
Santa Rosa valley, CA $200,223

Minneapolis: 11
Woodland, MN $321,539
Sunfish Lake, MN $303,539
Medina, MN $275,580
Minnetonka Beach, MN $266,738
Greenwood, MN $264,796
Dellwood, MN $228,798
Orono, MN $223,439
Deephaven, MN $221,481
Tonka Bay, MN $218,414
North Oaks, MN $215,440
Medicine Lake, MN $208,704

Miami: 9
Fisher Island, FL $690,319
Indian Creek, FL $532,700
Golf, FL $403,755
Gulf Stream, FL $369,778
Palm Beach, FL $317,516
Manalapan, FL $305,224
Golden Beach, FL $244,513
Sea Ranch Lakes, FL $225,986
Key Biscayne, FL $221,298

Houston: 8
Hunters Creek, TX $398,874
Piney Point, TX $373,831
Bunker Hill, TX $354,238
Hilshire, TX $313,198
West University Place, TX $294,912
Southside Place, TX $260,160
Bellaire, TX $241,509
Spring Valley, TX $201,620

Boston: 8
Dover, MA $282,943
Wellesley, MA $257,870
Duxbury, MA $244,398
Boxford, MA $237,065
South Duxbury, MA $231,258
Weekpaug, RI $216,942
Winchester, MA $213,552
Brookline, MA $206,826
So only New York, San Francisco Bay Area, Washington DC-Baltimore, Chicago, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Miami, Houston, and Boston have more "elite suburbs" as far as the United States' documentation for reported income goes.
 
Old 05-05-2015, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Center City, Philadelphia
4,625 posts, read 2,766,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John View Post
Yeah, about some of those Detroit area suburbs:

In the process it tops these two:

Sets itself apart from other Midwestern competition (save for, you guessed it, Chicago and the city it is being compared to right now -- Minneapolis):

Here is a list of the only cities that top Greater Detroit actually when it comes to "elite/exclusive suburbs" in the United States:

So only New York, San Francisco Bay Area, Washington DC-Baltimore, Chicago, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Miami, Houston, and Boston have more "elite suburbs" as far as the United States' documentation for reported income goes.
Source? I don't think what you said is true.

http://higley1000.com/archives/716

City Lab labeled the metro totals: America's 1,000 Richest Neighborhoods - CityLab
 
Old 05-05-2015, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtypirate View Post
Source? I don't think what you said is true.

http://higley1000.com/archives/716

City Lab labeled the metro totals: America's 1,000 Richest Neighborhoods - CityLab
Nah, it is 100% true. In fact by now, the average income in nearly all those places is higher.

I straight up pulled 18Montclair's statistics.

I also double-checked them, it is true. You can double-check here: American FactFinder

This is official documentation of what people report as their average income. It is 100% bullet proof fact. Census data always is over any article.

Census Places by Average Family Income 2010

I would update it to latest 2013 figures but I don't have the type of time to sit there and look through over 200 suburbs across the country and update each one. Here is a non-census related article, more or less, similar cities top both. http://higley1000.com/archives/380

Plus your link is neighborhoods and not suburbs. So two different things in the first place.
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