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View Poll Results: What is the Midwest's second city/metropolis?
Greater Detroit 65 41.67%
Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul 91 58.33%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 05-14-2015, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Michigan
4,571 posts, read 6,740,513 times
Reputation: 3588

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Detroit certainly has some good bones and if things were to really look up again in terms of the economy, Detroit could again be the undisputed second city.

However, it does currently look like it's disputable despite Detroit's much larger population (even larger when including the areas of Canada bordering it). It's also still looking like the trajectory for Detroit and the region is going to continue downwards for a bit before it finally bottoms out and gets back up while the Twin Cities look to continue growing. Since neither is presently undisputed, it might make sense to look at projections for both population and GDP growth rates based on current trends and see at what point it looks like Twin Cities will overtake Detroit in terms of population and at what point the Twin Cities will have a significantly larger GDP than Detroit (let's say something like 30%).

Based on what information? According to recent census estimates, the MSA has already surpassed 2010s official count.

 
Old 05-14-2015, 06:40 PM
 
1,049 posts, read 1,761,386 times
Reputation: 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
What is this random hodge podge of cities?
That is not a random hodgepodge of cities. As indicated in the same post, those Those cities are western - Midwest cities in the plains region as I had discussed. All of which have good to stellar growth, all above the national average at worst.
 
Old 05-14-2015, 07:02 PM
 
8,666 posts, read 6,341,325 times
Reputation: 3761
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Detroit certainly has some good bones and if things were to really look up again in terms of the economy, Detroit could again be the undisputed second city.

However, it does currently look like it's disputable despite Detroit's much larger population (even larger when including the areas of Canada bordering it). It's also still looking like the trajectory for Detroit and the region is going to continue downwards for a bit before it finally bottoms out and gets back up while the Twin Cities look to continue growing. Since neither is presently undisputed, it might make sense to look at projections for both population and GDP growth rates based on current trends and see at what point it looks like Twin Cities will overtake Detroit in terms of population and at what point the Twin Cities will have a significantly larger GDP than Detroit (let's say something like 30%).
I am just now realizing this argument for what it is at its core......it's a CLASS argument. Detroit is undoubtedly the more populous area.....but the fact that it is a lot poorer is what brings into question whether or not its the second city of the Midwest. Detroit has a large poor underclass, while Minneapolis really does not....and that is what makes a smaller Minneapolis more important, in the minds of many, than the larger Detroit. It's all about CLASS. Rich people matter more than poor people. Poor people are invisible in this metric. I count it one man one vote.......dissenters count it one dollar one vote. Thus, who has the most dollars wins.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-14-2015 at 07:12 PM..
 
Old 05-14-2015, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
1,541 posts, read 1,786,979 times
Reputation: 1571
Detroit is still a cool city...Suburbs are beautiful, much bigger than MPLS..
 
Old 05-14-2015, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Carver County, MN
1,395 posts, read 2,070,731 times
Reputation: 1223
Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
Those are really nice communities, but unfortunately because so many people are scared to live in Detroit, those 3 suburbs have seen significant mid-rise and high-rise condo tower development to try to fit more young professionals into these small downtowns. They have truly become significant nightlife destinations with bars upon bars upon nightclubs. I am guessing those Minneapolis/St. Paul communities have cute restaurants and boutiques, but they are mostly dead by 9 pm. That's the difference.

I could show you cute downtowns like that in the Detroit area such as downtown Farmington, Northville, Plymouth, Romeo, Rochester, Oxford, Milford, Berkley as well as downtrodden suburban downtowns like River Rouge, Lincoln Park, and Wayne.

And then we have downtown Windsor, Ontario, Canada
I find Downtown St. Paul to be quite a bit more impressive than Downtown Windsor.
 
Old 05-15-2015, 02:32 AM
 
1,653 posts, read 1,942,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota Spring View Post
I find Downtown St. Paul to be quite a bit more impressive than Downtown Windsor.
You are correct, Downtown St. Paul is much larger than Windsor's, which is just a large town of 200,000 and a metro population of 300,000. What is cool about downtown Detroit and Windsor are that they are right next to each other, while downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul are 10 miles apart. But you are right St. Paul is on a whole other level.

Downtown ANN ARBOR, though, is 40 miles from Downtown Detroit, and they are often considered as one metro area



In addition, the Detroit CSA does include Flint, MI


Last edited by usroute10; 05-15-2015 at 02:52 AM..
 
Old 05-15-2015, 02:43 AM
 
1,653 posts, read 1,942,318 times
Reputation: 1559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I am just now realizing this argument for what it is at its core......it's a CLASS argument. Detroit is undoubtedly the more populous area.....but the fact that it is a lot poorer is what brings into question whether or not its the second city of the Midwest. Detroit has a large poor underclass, while Minneapolis really does not....and that is what makes a smaller Minneapolis more important, in the minds of many, than the larger Detroit. It's all about CLASS. Rich people matter more than poor people. Poor people are invisible in this metric. I count it one man one vote.......dissenters count it one dollar one vote. Thus, who has the most dollars wins.
I can understand the GDP angle, there is something to be said about the productivity of your populace. In Detroit, we have far too many people in the 'hood whose talents and abilities are being wasted, and whose untapped potential is not being realized, because they caught up in that cycle of poverty and broken homes.
 
Old 05-15-2015, 06:34 AM
 
8,666 posts, read 6,341,325 times
Reputation: 3761
Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
I can understand the GDP angle, there is something to be said about the productivity of your populace. In Detroit, we have far too many people in the 'hood whose talents and abilities are being wasted, and whose untapped potential is not being realized, because they caught up in that cycle of poverty and broken homes.
Essentially what this is about is class....and race....not GDP. Essentially it comes down to what is the second city in the Midwest for a certain class and race of people. Urban Detroit does not offer a certain class and race of people what Chicago and Minneapolis can offer them. A poor predominately black urban area, as is the case with the city of Detroit, that offers little for the upper class and white population, will be ranked lower, notwithstanding its greater population. The poor and minority population simply have less value in such rankings, which is painfully obvious.

Other than higher incomes and fewer minorities, which creates higher GDP per capita, Minneapolis is really more in the league with the Greater Cleveland-Akron area or the Greater St Louis area, whose population is closer to that of Minneapolis than Minneapolis is close to the population of the Greater Detroit region.....but what is the value of a greater population if a large portion of that population is of no value to you.

And here is another thing. Does not cost of living impact GDP or GMP? If it cost more to live in an area...then the dollar value of goods and services rendered will be higher also, translating into a higher GMP (Gross Metro Product).

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-15-2015 at 07:44 AM..
 
Old 05-15-2015, 09:03 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,128 posts, read 21,737,714 times
Reputation: 10216
Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian View Post
Based on what information? According to recent census estimates, the MSA has already surpassed 2010s official count.
Estimates of changes from 2010 I saw are a few hundred people up for MSA, several thousand people down for CSA, and a couple tens of thousands down for the city itself. I'm not sure I'd agree with the assessment this isn't still a downwards trajectory overall, though of course, these are estimates. I think the region as a whole is at least bottoming out population-wise and about to rebound though hasn't quite hit there yet. The city still has a bit more to go. Compare that to the fairly steady growth the Twin Cities have. At what point does it seem like the two intersect given current trends (this is on the, of course, unsteady assumption that these trends continue)? The core of the Twin Cities (the Twin Cities themselves) is certainly healthier than Detroit proper is at this point and the Twin Cities have the ability to heavily invest in infrastructure so the outlook for the Twin Cities looks to be great for the foreseeable future. One interesting note is that the Twin Cities combined (solely Minneapolis and Saint Paul which are adjacent to each other and share a long border) have just recently passed the city of Detroit in population while covering a smaller area? I think that's a pretty visible sign of the trajectory of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I am just now realizing this argument for what it is at its core......it's a CLASS argument. Detroit is undoubtedly the more populous area.....but the fact that it is a lot poorer is what brings into question whether or not its the second city of the Midwest. Detroit has a large poor underclass, while Minneapolis really does not....and that is what makes a smaller Minneapolis more important, in the minds of many, than the larger Detroit. It's all about CLASS. Rich people matter more than poor people. Poor people are invisible in this metric. I count it one man one vote.......dissenters count it one dollar one vote. Thus, who has the most dollars wins.
I'm just now realizing you might not have understood this topic. I don't think anyone has ever argued against the idea Detroit is the more populous area of the two. Not a single post has reflected that. Moreover, the topic at hand isn't asking specifically about which is the more populous of the two--that wouldn't be much of a topic for the most part since you can pretty much look it up and by any measurement or official boundary, Detroit is bigger.

This topic is about making a hierarchy--i.e. classifying the position of the two within the same space. Population is certainly one of the measures, but there's also the GDP of the areas in terms of measuring economic influence and importance.

There can be a variety of other metrics out there. You can argue that University of Michigan in the Detroit MSA is better than University of Minnesota and the other colleges in the Minnesota area and that should count for something. You can argue that the Twin Cities also plays host to its state capital and therefore has a bit more sway in its own region than Detroit does since Lansing is pretty far out. There are a lot of arguments.

You can certainly make the argument that the dollar, which you reduced this down to, is a pretty good proxy of economic health and influence, is a very important factor. In fact, I believe there are many people and organizations who are working on getting Detroit more dollars for everyone there. I think the state and federal government should have probably been thinking of better ways of putting more of those dollars into Detroit and constantly testing and following up for effectiveness of the use of those dollars for a while, because it's ridiculous for Detroit to have been so long suffering given its remarkable history.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-15-2015 at 09:11 AM..
 
Old 05-15-2015, 09:12 AM
 
202 posts, read 273,161 times
Reputation: 146
The colored picture is downtown grand rapids not flint.
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