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View Poll Results: What is the Midwest's second city/metropolis?
Greater Detroit 65 41.67%
Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul 91 58.33%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-01-2015, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Greater Detroit versus Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul, which one is soundly the Midwest's second place in the hierarchy?

Factor into it every facet about a city/metropolis. We'll dissect this down to its bare bones as a topic if we need to.

- Importance: things like Gross Domestic Product, Fortune 500/1000, Market Capitalization, Total Personal Income, the correlative per capita measurements, major industries, shipping and/or trade or commerce, market value (abundance in market specific amenities (I.E.; Apple Store, Tesla Showrooms, professional sports teams, luxury hotel brands).

- The ability of the city to have "good to great neighborhoods" and the metropolis to have "good to great suburbs." Their own pertinent styles in architecture, urban form, plant life, urban parks, mass transit, taxi fleets, accessibility to the most relevant points in the region.

- Institutions of education: First primary education, on a metropolitan area wide scale of K-12. Then higher educational facilities such as colleges and universities, specific graduate level schools, so on.

- Institutions of culture: Public library systems, museums, art galleries, amphitheaters, concert halls and/or venues, specified green-space for large scale events, cultural centers, historic sites and/or properties.

- The dichotomy of food and/or culinary offerings. A strong sense of regional cuisine, something largely either popular or invented in the region that is not so easily found elsewhere in the country. Has to be local culture (I.E.; Detroit's hot-dogs, pizzas, sandwiches -- its own style). Then a plethora of food choices from around the world. Then a range of offerings ranging from outdoor food establishments (carts or trucks or vendors) to the multitude of price ranging restaurants "cheap eats" to "fine dining." Then also some examples of culinary fusion, if that is available in these regions.

An addition could be beverage things and/or shisha/hookah bars. For beverage related things think of something that may come from the area, whether it is beer, wine, whiskey or whatever else.

- Network: A city's user friendliness, in my personal opinion, is well connected to how easily people from any and/or all backgrounds can establish a foothold in a place on their stay there. Things like neighborhood integration, neighborhood cohesion, labeled and marked districts, helpful street signs, consulates, visitors centers, helpful residents and/or abundance of travel agencies, customer service, so on.

- Airline coverage/airport accessibility: Another dichotomy where first look at the places you can go to at the regional level, then the national level, then the continental level, then finally the global level. Which airlines have prominent hubs, which airlines have a presence, and number of commercial airports available in the region.

- Job market/industries: This is a two-part question. First is the job market. The relative health of the job market, the availability of positions, the industries that are expanding the most, wage appreciation, so on. Then industry, which industries have crucial presence in the area, which ones impact the area most, which ones have beneficial worldwide influence. Also which city is the bigger business hub? With conventions, more properties with conference rooms, business travelers, so on.

- The abundance of things to do within the areas' vicinity. Natural or recreational offerings. Lakes, rivers, forests, waterfalls, so on. State parks. National parks. Area parks. Fun places to go out and explore.

- Location: relative to other places in the country. So how accessible is the place. Can it become a hub of its region with this location? Which other cities would fall "under influence" for these two cities?

- Cosmopolitanism: there was a thread asking about which is more cosmopolitan between Nashville and San Antonio. Honestly had to crack up at that, LOL. Neither. However these two cities are actually quite large and draw an immigrant pool from various places around the world. Detroit is huge in the Arab world here in the United States and from my understanding Minneapolis is THE primary destination point for the Hmong and Somali people. Which place is more cosmopolitan (or diverse or international)?

- Regulations: State tax structure, state business tax structure, security, policing, patrolling (neighborhood committees), so on.

- Retail: Availability of any and all possible brands for clothing, electronics, shoes, food, furniture, and/or all other categories for shoppers.

- Infrastructure: Mass transit by rail, mass transit by bus, bike lanes and/or trails, walkability factors, convenience for automobile users in regards to roads, parking, so on.

- Availability in entertainment: nightlife bars, nightlife clubs, nightlife lounges, happy hour bars, rave halls, music venues, live performances, street performances, so on.

- Culture: Local character and personality such as accents, customs, beliefs, religious institutions that prevail most prominently in the area, political beliefs, cultural influences from outside the area and inside the area. Culture and what it is geared towards (intelligence, work ethic, hard work, so on).

Anything else, just tack it on and include it in the thread. Compare them at everything, we're looking to see which one is the Midwest's all around second metropolis/city after Chicago.

Last edited by Facts Kill Rhetoric; 05-01-2015 at 05:05 PM..

 
Old 05-01-2015, 04:26 PM
AT9
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
691 posts, read 1,006,717 times
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Though Detroit has the historic claim to the Midwest's second metropolis, I think MSP wins it hands down today. The MSP economy is one of few in the midwest that has been really prosperous lately. And I don't want to slam Detroit, but I think most would think of MSP as being a much nicer city and metro generally.

Last edited by AT9; 05-01-2015 at 04:42 PM..
 
Old 05-01-2015, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Tokyo, Japan
6,479 posts, read 7,708,485 times
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One more thing, the use of CSA in this thread is fine by me.

To re-emphasize, this is NOT a preference thread. This is an "as close to objective as possible" thread. Please gear your responses into this school of thought, thanks in advance.

I went ahead and gave Detroit the slight edge for the current moment. It is hard to ignore that it is still the second largest population center in the Midwest after Chicago (with 5.3 million people), has more foreign flag carriers in the Midwest than any city other than Chicago (5), more foreign destinations than anywhere in the Midwest outside of Chicago (27), has the largest Gross Domestic Product of anywhere in the Midwest outside of Chicago ($262.166 Billion), has the highest Total Personal Income of anywhere in the Midwest outside of Chicago ($222.824 Billion).

Plenty of categories where the Twin Cities win too, obviously, but I went with slight edge to Greater Detroit overall. Can see how others may think differently and hopefully they can make the argument interesting.

Last edited by Facts Kill Rhetoric; 05-01-2015 at 05:01 PM..
 
Old 05-01-2015, 09:20 PM
 
1,000 posts, read 1,427,883 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John View Post
One more thing, the use of CSA in this thread is fine by me.

To re-emphasize, this is NOT a preference thread. This is an "as close to objective as possible" thread. Please gear your responses into this school of thought, thanks in advance.

I went ahead and gave Detroit the slight edge for the current moment. It is hard to ignore that it is still the second largest population center in the Midwest after Chicago (with 5.3 million people), has more foreign flag carriers in the Midwest than any city other than Chicago (5), more foreign destinations than anywhere in the Midwest outside of Chicago (27), has the largest Gross Domestic Product of anywhere in the Midwest outside of Chicago ($262.166 Billion), has the highest Total Personal Income of anywhere in the Midwest outside of Chicago ($222.824 Billion).

Plenty of categories where the Twin Cities win too, obviously, but I went with slight edge to Greater Detroit overall. Can see how others may think differently and hopefully they can make the argument interesting.
Minneapolis-St. Paul's GDP surpassed Detroit's last year:

List of U.S. metropolitan areas by GDP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Old 05-01-2015, 10:04 PM
 
Location: LoS ScAnDaLoUs KiLLa CaLI
1,227 posts, read 1,116,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John View Post
Greater Detroit versus Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul, which one is soundly the Midwest's second place in the hierarchy?

Factor into it every facet about a city/metropolis. We'll dissect this down to its bare bones as a topic if we need to.

- Importance: things like Gross Domestic Product, Fortune 500/1000, Market Capitalization, Total Personal Income, the correlative per capita measurements, major industries, shipping and/or trade or commerce, market value (abundance in market specific amenities (I.E.; Apple Store, Tesla Showrooms, professional sports teams, luxury hotel brands): Until American lawmakers find a way to bring more industry back to Michigan, MSP is better suited for the future due to a somewhat larger knowledge-based economy. That isn't to say that Detroit or the suburbs don't have have knowledge based industries -- after all, UM isn't that far away, but its more abundant in MSP simply because MSP started off as a smaller base generally, while DET was a major city when Americans still believed in manufacturing. Now, it's the reverse.

- The ability of the city to have "good to great neighborhoods" and the metropolis to have "good to great suburbs." Their own pertinent styles in architecture, urban form, plant life, urban parks, mass transit, taxi fleets, accessibility to the most relevant points in the region.

- Institutions of education: First primary education, on a metropolitan area wide scale of K-12. Then higher educational facilities such as colleges and universities, specific graduate level schools, so on. Assume for the sake of argument that the primary school system in the suburbs are relatively equal, in the cities themselves, I believe Minneapolis and St. Paul are better than Detroit. However, most people don't live in the cities. In terms of colleges and universities, UM is better than any school in Minnesota, but after that, I think the other schools in MSP beat out MSU, Wayne State, etc.

- Institutions of culture: Public library systems, museums, art galleries, amphitheaters, concert halls and/or venues, specified green-space for large scale events, cultural centers, historic sites and/or properties. I'm not the right person to ask

- The dichotomy of food and/or culinary offerings. A strong sense of regional cuisine, something largely either popular or invented in the region that is not so easily found elsewhere in the country. Has to be local culture (I.E.; Detroit's hot-dogs, pizzas, sandwiches -- its own style). Then a plethora of food choices from around the world. Then a range of offerings ranging from outdoor food establishments (carts or trucks or vendors) to the multitude of price ranging restaurants "cheap eats" to "fine dining." Then also some examples of culinary fusion, if that is available in these regions. I think both are relatively equal, but DET would have more of an edge here because it does have more local takes on food. I know that Minnesota has a real apparent German and Nordic heritage, but Northern European based foods can't make up for the fact that Detroit really has their own takes on Italian and Polish dishes. I think Detroit is actually underrated in this aspect.

An addition could be beverage things and/or shisha/hookah bars. For beverage related things think of something that may come from the area, whether it is beer, wine, whiskey or whatever else.

- Network: A city's user friendliness, in my personal opinion, is well connected to how easily people from any and/or all backgrounds can establish a foothold in a place on their stay there. Things like neighborhood integration, neighborhood cohesion, labeled and marked districts, helpful street signs, consulates, visitors centers, helpful residents and/or abundance of travel agencies, customer service, so on. I think both MSP and DET are relatively equal in this aspect

- Airline coverage/airport accessibility: Another dichotomy where first look at the places you can go to at the regional level, then the national level, then the continental level, then finally the global level. Which airlines have prominent hubs, which airlines have a presence, and number of commercial airports available in the region. There are a lot of airport gurus on CD. I'm not one of them, haha.

- Job market/industries: This is a two-part question. First is the job market. The relative health of the job market, the availability of positions, the industries that are expanding the most, wage appreciation, so on. Then industry, which industries have crucial presence in the area, which ones impact the area most, which ones have beneficial worldwide influence. Also which city is the bigger business hub? With conventions, more properties with conference rooms, business travelers, so on. See importance to the economy. There is a reason why UM sends people out of state, mainly to New York, while the University of Minnesota and other institutions are more locally oriented. Though I'm happy to say at least Michigan's economy is recovering

- The abundance of things to do within the areas' vicinity. Natural or recreational offerings. Lakes, rivers, forests, waterfalls, so on. State parks. National parks. Area parks. Fun places to go out and explore. IMO I love the Great Lakes, so nothing could beat Michigan for that. Both are fun though if you want it to be

- Location: relative to other places in the country. So how accessible is the place. Can it become a hub of its region with this location? Which other cities would fall "under influence" for these two cities? Detroit is definitely more accessible to the more populated areas of the country. By car, Detroit is within 4 hours of Chicago and within 9 hours of NYC. I believe Chicago and Milwaukee are 7-8 hours by car to Minneapolis, and there really isn't much West of Minnesota in terms of populated places within a day's drive.

- Cosmopolitanism: there was a thread asking about which is more cosmopolitan between Nashville and San Antonio. Honestly had to crack up at that, LOL. Neither. However these two cities are actually quite large and draw an immigrant pool from various places around the world. Detroit is huge in the Arab world here in the United States and from my understanding Minneapolis is THE primary destination point for the Hmong and Somali people. Which place is more cosmopolitan (or diverse or international)? You hit the nail on the head. But given its size, I'd give it to Minneapolis. I think its the only major metro in the US (maybe Seattle is there too) where most of the Blacks are of recent African ancestry as opposed to being African-American

- Regulations: State tax structure, state business tax structure, security, policing, patrolling (neighborhood committees), so on. Not fair to compare Michigan and Minnesota here, haha.

- Retail: Availability of any and all possible brands for clothing, electronics, shoes, food, furniture, and/or all other categories for shoppers. Don't know about Detroit's offerings, but MSP has the Mall of America. I don't know though. I shop online.

- Infrastructure: Mass transit by rail, mass transit by bus, bike lanes and/or trails, walkability factors, convenience for automobile users in regards to roads, parking, so on. I think MSP beats out DET here because there is a rail system in MSP, while DET is the king of the car industry (or what's left of it)

- Availability in entertainment: nightlife bars, nightlife clubs, nightlife lounges, happy hour bars, rave halls, music venues, live performances, street performances, so on.Ehh, I dunno.

- Culture: Local character and personality such as accents, customs, beliefs, religious institutions that prevail most prominently in the area, political beliefs, cultural influences from outside the area and inside the area. Culture and what it is geared towards (intelligence, work ethic, hard work, so on). I'm a thirsty *** dude. Anywhere with cute girls, no matter what their beliefs are, are 10/10 with me

Anything else, just tack it on and include it in the thread. Compare them at everything, we're looking to see which one is the Midwest's all around second metropolis/city after Chicago.
Answers in bold

For the most part, I think that DET's prominence has carried it far, but MSP has closed the gap. I think by 2020, MSP will surpass DET being the #2 MW city. I think this is a larger reflection on how American's themselves let Detroit kind of die (along with a lot of American blue collar jobs), while MSP has grown based off it's knowledge economy.

DET vs. MSP in a lot of ways is a reflection of America at large:
1) The Westward Migration of people.
2) The blue vs white collar sectors.

There are probably more comparisons, but those two are really stark.
 
Old 05-01-2015, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Detroit
3,626 posts, read 4,346,455 times
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They are neck and neck right now, I'm very impressed with Minneapolis although Detroit's performance last decade on the national/ world stage was terrible. It is getting better so I am optimistic about that. I think all things included, Detroit CSA and the Windsor side of the Detroit area gives it more of an edge over Minneapolis. Although Minneapolis keeps growing and growing, I think the worse of Detroit is over and this will be an interesting thing to watch over the years. Tough call, like a city version of Mayweather/Pacquiao lol (sorry I'm hyped up for the fight).
 
Old 05-01-2015, 10:54 PM
 
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Detroit still seems to be in 2nd place for the Midwest, but Minneapolis is gaining momentum. Detroit historically and present-day, Minneapolis in the near future.
 
Old 05-01-2015, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis (St. Louis Park)
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I'm a born and raised Minneapolitan, but Detroit has the rightful #2 spot in the Midwest, and I don't care if MSP is the hotter entity right now -- it has to EARN the title. Also, respect is deserved to Detroit, which is a much more important city than 99% of Americans perceive it to be.
 
Old 05-02-2015, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Min-Chi-Cbus View Post
I'm a born and raised Minneapolitan, but Detroit has the rightful #2 spot in the Midwest, and I don't care if MSP is the hotter entity right now -- it has to EARN the title. Also, respect is deserved to Detroit, which is a much more important city than 99% of Americans perceive it to be.
Well to be fair, I think Greater Minneapolis-Saint Paul has put itself in a position to where it can be considered Greater Detroit's equal at this point in time and both stand well above the rest of the Midwest in their own tier by themselves, just behind Chicago. Both are obviously well ahead of the rest of the pack in the Midwest.

Here, take for example Greater Minneapolis-Saint Paul and Greater Detroit compared to other large Midwestern cities like Greater Cleveland, Greater Saint Louis, Greater Cincinnati, Greater Indianapolis, Greater Columbus, or Greater Kansas City.

Saint Louis, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Columbus, so on all only have 3 foreign destinations, all of them to Toronto, Cancun, and a variation that ranges from Puerto Vallarta to Cozumel depending on which city you're looking at. NONE of them have any non-stop destinations or destinations in general outside of North America.

Whereas Detroit and Minneapolis do. They are large enough and important enough cities to business travelers from other points in the world or immigrants from other points in the world to where they have and can support 27 airline destinations in a foreign country, each. Detroit in particular is impressive, it has 5 foreign flag carriers, that is technically 1 more than a much larger Greater Philadelphia and more than anywhere in the Midwest save for Chicago.

On the cultural front, Zagat, for instance has earmarked both cities as "rising culinary destinations" which says a lot about the growth and innovations in each respective city's food scenes:

https://www.zagat.com/americas-next-...cities/detroit

Frankly, impressive. Detroit came in third, Minneapolis fifth, so roughly about equal there too. Like I said, impressive nonetheless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bslette View Post
Minneapolis-St. Paul's GDP surpassed Detroit's last year:

List of U.S. metropolitan areas by GDP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
MSA:
- Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI: $213.466 Billion
- Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI: $213.258

CSA:
- Greater Detroit: $262.166 Billion
- Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul: $236.389 Billion

Still a couple of years left to go before you catch up and surpass Greater Detroit but Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul is poised to do so at some point in the next 2-4 years. Just presently, Detroit is slightly ahead but both places are neck-in-neck.

Technically Greater Cleveland CSA is just about the exact same size as Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul CSA in terms of population (it is slightly smaller) but Greater Minneapolis' economy is far ahead of Greater Cleveland's $170.063 Billion.

BEA: News Release: GDP by Metropolitan Area, Advance 2012, and Revised 2001–2011

Last edited by Facts Kill Rhetoric; 05-02-2015 at 01:20 PM..
 
Old 05-02-2015, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Westside Grand Rapids
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Detroit was the #4 metro area in terms of population for decades. That slowly started shifting after the 1980 census, and then rapidly after the 1990 census. The 2000's were SE Michigan's worst decade economically in its history and if not for the auto bailout the Detroit area would be shrinking at catastrophic rates.

However since 2010 the area has stabalized and started to resurge. Arguably the Detroit area had to go through that contraction as it had an expensive and under educated workforce. The shift of manufacturing southward has slowly but surely shift the Detroit area economy from that of a majority blue collar workforce to being more of the brain trust for the worlds automotive centers. The transition it has gone through in the last 50 years was inevitable.

It will be interesting to see if that momentum continues. What needs to be addressed is how to stabalize the core city, and bring the crumbling area infrastructure into the modern day. If that can happen I think Detroit can start competing again instead of just waiting for all of these other cities to keep passing it by.

Detroit for now.
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