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Old 05-26-2015, 12:55 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,766 posts, read 12,744,983 times
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[quote=msamhunter;39757297]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ;39753664

Contrary to popular belief indy is not all of Marion county. You do have the excludes. But to answer your question, Indy has for the most part been steady, even during the recessions whereas the 3 c's esp cinch and cle has not. Indy just past Cleveland in '14 in size of economy and it passed cincy 3rd qtr of 2007 and cbus before that so cbus and cincy Indy has had a larger economy for quite a while (8+ years). Can you point to any particular market, no since GDP is goods/services produced over a given time period (2 years) but convention and sports are Indy monikers that wellWproduce a lot. While cincy and cle have prof sports like Indy, they lack the other sports. The 3 c's has always trailed Indy in conventions so that should not come as a shock. Cbus conv center larger than ICC by a nice clip, yet can't pull conventions to save its life.
So there are what, maybe 30 square miles in Marion County that are not part of Indianapolis' city limits? It's still over 150 square miles larger than Columbus.

Columbus has closed the GDP gap the last few years. We'll see if that's a trend or a blip, but I'm sure you can guess what I think it is.

You know what I think of when I think of conventions? Old guys in Des Moines selling bathroom products. Something to hang your hat on, I guess.
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:11 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,766 posts, read 12,744,983 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist View Post
I stated the difference between both counties
since you include Marion County within a bracket. However, you are right that
Columbus has less land area than Indianapolis. When it comes to anything within
city limits Indy has an advantage over Columbus with more land to handle more
development and population (larger tax base). (see Houston) In the long run this
give Indy an advantage unless Columbus can annex more land.
Actually, I see it as a disadvantage considering how so much of Indy's city limits is poor quality suburban development that would be hard to rehab into something walkable. Indy's former resident Aaron Renn used to go on and on about that on his blogs. It also doesn't explain why Indianapolis is growing so much more slowly in its city limits if size alone is a huge advantage.

Quote:
I been in Columbus many times. I have yet to see anything worth while to right
home about. Having larger malls like Polaris and Easton didn't help City Center
did it? So what does the city do. They tear it down to create open space like
Commons. Now when the Commons is empty why waste such prime space downtown. Now
keep in mind Indy has it's own version of Commons known as the War Memorial so
that cancels out any advantage there. Currently, Columbus lack any centralized
space vibrant with as much foot traffic like Monument Circle or Circle Center.
You have more foot traffic inside Circle Centre during the winter time where as
in Columbus that option is lacking behind Indy big time.
I find it strange how so many Indianapolis posters feel like enclosed malls are super duper urban development. I guess they once were... but this isn't 1982 anymore. That park has so far spurred more development in the last few years than City Center ever did in its 20 years of existence. It's been a massive success. And frankly, the Arena District alone beats anything in Indianapolis' downtown in terms of urban vibrancy locations. But it really doesn't matter. Trends matter far more than the present snapshot anyway.

Quote:
There have been many more projects added to downtown in the 10 last years (ie
new stadium, cultural trails, new grocery store, canal expansion -list goes on
etc.) Downtown Indy has more today than what existed 10 years so you're
absolutely wrong there. Those additional projects have been built and more is
coming. Those are facts to be sure about.
Meh, so where are the people? I can post population trend maps if you'd like.

Quote:
Downtown Columbus lacks centralization compared to Indy. The neighborhoods in
Columbus are only one aspect of a city but lacks centralization in it's core.
It's not as if Indy doesn't have neighborhoods for people to go to but when you
can pack the streets of downtown and effectively connect the pedestrians to the
neighborhoods via the Cultural Trail network this type of plan is much more
practical and comprehensive by comparison. Columbus is less centralized at it's
core and is just all over the place lacking that kind of urban continuity.
Whatever you have to tell yourself. The core is more than the immediate downtown of any city. Indy has a bit of decent Downtown, but a pretty terrible urban core. Columbus, at least for a long time, had a meh downtown, but a great urban core. Even if nothing was changing, I'd rather have the latter any day of the week. But things are changing.
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:14 AM
 
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It's the Indy 500.
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Old 05-26-2015, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Earth
2,549 posts, read 3,112,959 times
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[quote=jbcmh81;39760284][quote]


Actually, I see it as a disadvantage considering how so much of Indy's city limits is poor quality suburban development that would be hard to rehab into something walkable. Indy's former resident Aaron Renn used to go on and on about that on his blogs. It also doesn't explain why Indianapolis is growing so much more slowly in its city limits if size alone is a huge advantage.[quote]

Both cities aren't growing at Austin's pace so there isn't that kind of gap between either city.



Quote:
I find it strange how so many Indianapolis posters feel like enclosed malls are super duper urban development. I guess they once were... but this isn't 1982 anymore. That park has so far spurred more development in the last few years than City Center ever did in its 20 years of existence. It's been a massive success. And frankly, the Arena District alone beats anything in Indianapolis' downtown in terms of urban vibrancy locations. But it really doesn't matter. Trends matter far more than the present snapshot anyway.
You do have have enclosed malls in cities like Cleveland's Arcade, Chicago's Water Tower Place, Manhattan Mall in NYC etc. so that's nothing new. Having enclosed malls in a urban downtown setting doesn't make it suburban. An enclosed mall is suburban when it is largely surrounded by surface parking taking up several arces of land away from it. Circle Centre wasn't designed that way. It has a parking garage across the street but at street level the garage is lined with restaurants and pubs along with underground parking for the most part in a urban setting. The Arena District looked dead compared the Wholesale District. The Arena District is on the other side of an interstate of I-70 which Indy does not have that problem. Wholesale District's location is more centralized closer to where most of the business and foot traffic exists downtown. The Arena District seems isolated in comparison to the Wholesale District.



Quote:
Meh, so where are the people? I can post population trend maps if you'd like.
Don't need to just go there and see the difference between a dead downtown like Columbus and a street level vibrant downtown in Indy.


Quote:
Whatever you have to tell yourself. The core is more than the immediate downtown of any city. Indy has a bit of decent Downtown, but a pretty terrible urban core. Columbus, at least for a long time, had a meh downtown, but a great urban core. Even if nothing was changing, I'd rather have the latter any day of the week. But things are changing.
Downtown Columbus just needs to take a more aggressive approach to downtown vibrancy. It's not Boston and isn't on Indy's level yet. However, I don't see downtown Indy stopping it's growing development to wait for Columbus to catch up. Downtown Indy would actually have more in common with downtown Milwaukee than downtown Columbus when it comes to downtown vibrancy.
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Old 05-26-2015, 10:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fumbling View Post
It's the Indy 500.
Indy 500: Bigger than the Super Bowl | The Fiscal Times
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Old 05-26-2015, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fumbling View Post
The Super Bowl is the largest televised event but the Indy500 has the world's largest in attendance at IMS which is far larger than any stadium in the country compared to one Super Bowl game something no arena or small stadium can do in Columbus.
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Old 05-26-2015, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,766 posts, read 12,744,983 times
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[quote=urbanologist;39762385][quote=jbcmh81;39760284][quote]

Quote:
Both cities aren't growing at Austin's pace so there isn't that kind of gap
between either city.
No, but even Austin isn't growing like it once did. Huge population booms like that have expiration dates. And to be fair, I'm not saying that Indy's growth is bad, because it's not, especially for the Midwest, but for whatever reason, I don't think it's truly capitalizing on its strengths. Being a sports capital or whatever only gets you so far, and I think Indianapolis does a really bad job at fixing the livability stuff like crime, walkability, transit and infrastructure. Granted, Columbus does a crappy job on transit too, but it does a lot of the small stuff right, and I think that matters much more than being known for one thing.

Quote:
You do have have enclosed malls in cities like Cleveland's Arcade, Chicago's
Water Tower Place, Manhattan Mall in NYC etc. so that's nothing new.
Sure, but they're all relics of the past too, for the most part. Some can still be reasonably successful if they adapt or have large nearby populations that can support them... or if there's no strong competition, which is really what keeps Circle Center afloat.

Quote:
Having enclosed malls in a urban downtown setting doesn't make it suburban.
No, its design and implementation makes it suburban.

Quote:
An enclosed mall is suburban when it is largely surrounded by surface parking
taking up several arces of land away from it. Circle Centre wasn't designed that
way. It has a parking garage across the street but at street level the garage is
lined with restaurants and pubs along with underground parking for the most part
in a urban setting.
You can fancy it up any way you want, but the lack of a surface parking lot does not make the actual design any less suburban. Nor do a few street-level restaurants, of which most suburban malls also have.

Quote:
The Arena District looked dead compared the Wholesale District. The Arena
District is on the other side of an interstate of I-70 which Indy does not have
that problem. Wholesale District's location is more centralized closer to where
most of the business and foot traffic exists downtown. The Arena District seems
isolated in comparison to the Wholesale District.
?? The other side of 70 from what?? It's IN Downtown. There is no highway between it and the rest of the neighborhood. It's directly across from the convention center and is just south of the Short North. It's all grouped together, making it a continuous urban area that Indy simply does not have.

The Wholesale District looks pretty much like any other nondescript downtown area, except with a mall.

Quote:
Don't need to just go there and see the difference between a dead downtown like
Columbus and a street level vibrant downtown in Indy.
I'm thinking you need to rethink what urban vibrancy means. A mall and some office buildings doesn't cut it, because WD looks like any part of a downtown in the Midwest. Columbus has areas that look just like that too. Luckily, that's not all it has.

Quote:
Downtown Columbus just needs to take a more aggressive approach to downtown
vibrancy. It's not Boston and isn't on Indy's level yet. However, I don't see
downtown Indy stopping it's growing development to wait for Columbus to catch
up. Downtown Indy would actually have more in common with downtown Milwaukee
than downtown Columbus when it comes to downtown vibrancy.
I'm thinking you are perhaps not that aware of what's going on in Columbus, and perhaps I'm not that aware of what's going on in Indy... but come on. Indy is not some urban mecca. It's density can't even hold a candle to Columbus, let alone Milwaukee.
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Old 05-26-2015, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,766 posts, read 12,744,983 times
Reputation: 5440
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist View Post
The Super Bowl is the largest televised event but the Indy500 has the world's largest in attendance at IMS which is far larger than any stadium in the country compared to one Super Bowl game something no arena or small stadium can do in Columbus.
Personally, I'd rather watch paint dry than 500 left turns, but that's just me. Some people like watching golf too. I don't understand it, but everyone has their thing.
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:29 PM
 
11,015 posts, read 21,568,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
The point of the thread was to discuss what makes Indianapolis' GDP much higher than the others, implying that it had some special secret economic formula. My point all along has been that it's not all that much higher (nor is it growing as fast per GDP), and that its overall economics are decidedly mixed.
I noticed that as well, when looking at the GDP and the metro population - not CSA which are much different in some cases, like Cleveland with a similar metro area than Indy but a MUCH larger CSA - there's nothing crazy about Indy's numbers. It might be a bit higher than some others, but it's not extraordinary.
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Old 05-26-2015, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
6,205 posts, read 8,356,135 times
Reputation: 4624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago60614 View Post
I noticed that as well, when looking at the GDP and the metro population - not CSA which are much different in some cases, like Cleveland with a similar metro area than Indy but a MUCH larger CSA - there's nothing crazy about Indy's numbers. It might be a bit higher than some others, but it's not extraordinary.
$12 billion is only a bit to you? Interesting.
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