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urbanologist;39781364]Between 2010 and 2014 Austin's population has jumped from 912,791 to 790,390 at
a +15.49% clip. I don't see that as a sign of slowing growth. Well, any city could have a slow down period but we are talking about right now. Indy could do a better job on crime but it's not the city with all the protesters out in
the street like you see in Cleveland right now. As for walkability downtown
Columbus doesn't have anything of quality to match Indy's Cultural Trail which
connects all it's neighborhoods going above the typical ordinary boring concrete
sidewalk design.
Austin grew about 28% more slowly during the previous decade than it did during the 1990s. We won't know for sure about this decade for 5 more years. And as I said, booms have an expiration date, just as declines.
Cleveland's protests had to do with police abuse of power and lack of accountability, which seems to be a widespread problem in the US these days. I totally support that and all other non-violent forms of protest.
Cultural Trail is nice and an Indy asset, but let's be honest, it's a multi-use path. Fancier than most, but it serves the same function as the rest. And something that successful should be repeated in Indy across the city. Are there any plans to do that?
Indy doesn't have anything like the High Street corridor, which is virtually continuously developed from German Village, through Downtown to Campus.
Quote:
Suburban how? Circle Centre has street level businesses and entrances along
it's perimeter with connecting skywalks to other buildings in a urban setting.
That's not something your going to find in the city's burbs. Going past the
sidewalks you are surrounded by streets not huge asphalt surface parking
covering several acres that you typically find with an enclosed mall located in
the suburbs. You do know th some of the oldest enclosed malls in the country are
actually located in some downtowns of other cities existing well before any of
the enclosed mall designs reached the burbs so you are incorrect. If it were
located in the suburbs surrounded by huge acreage of surface parking then yes
but it is not.
Again, it's not the surrounding area that makes it suburban. Enclosed malls are meant to keep people inside and shopping. If all that retail were spread out over individual stores across Indy's downtown, can you imagine the type of wide-scale street activity you would have? Instead, it's all concentrated in a single place where people rarely venture beyond. City Center killed a lot of existing retail in Downtown Columbus for the very same reason. A few token sidewalk cafe's wouldn't have changed that and it doesn't really change the way Circle Center acts on Downtown Indy. Retail locations are now exploding in downtown Columbus, and across a much larger area than when City Center existed. Gay, High, Long and Rich streets in particular are seeing massive benefit from its demise, as are parts of Front, Oak and others.
And in some places, large enclosed retail can work, like in New York or Chicago, where there are enough people to support a wide range of development choices. Neither Indy nor Columbus are like that. Columbus' mall just failed earlier largely because it faced a ton of newer, and in some cases larger malls out in the suburbs. Circle Center doesn't really have a ton of nearby competition, so it has been able to maintain its market share much better. That doesn't make it a good design for a downtown in a city like Indianapolis.
Quote:
I'm thinking of the Brewery District. The Wholesale District is more established
with older buildings especially along the dense Meridian Street corridor. The
Arena District is newer, isolated and seems disconnected from the rest of
downtown compared to the Wholesale District. It's not as if you have City Center
a block over for retail which it lacks.
I'm not sure what newness has to do with vibrancy. As far as being isolated, I don't see it. It's a hugely popular part of Downtown, even if it's not dead-center.
Quote:
The Wholesale District is something the Arena District can aspire to
become.
I'm thinking it's the other way around. The AD has been copied in other cities because it was so successful. There was just a recent article about it, I'll have to look it up again.
Quote:
Neither city is New Olreans or Boston but it's good to see competition
between the two to become better urban cities.
[/quote]
On that we can agree, and I do appreciate the passion people have for their respective cities.
First of all, which downtown is "better" is going to be subjective no matter what, but perhaps we should come up with some criteria for what may constitute better in this case. Population, density, # of amenities, parks, total downtown malls? I don't know.
Second, way to take those lines out of context. A real burn, that was.
I was just asking you. You said C-bus had caught up with Indy. I was just asking you for your reasoning. You can frame your response however you want.
Columbus isn't the ultimate in everything and has a lot of flaws, but when comparing downtowns TODAY, I'm not sure there's really all that much difference anymore. As far as density goes, it's measurably different in Columbus than Indianapolis. That's not speculation or homerism, it's a fact. It's also now more dense than Cincinnati and closing the gap pretty quickly vs. Cleveland.
I think you are trying to incorporate density with better. That is a personal metric. If everyone wanted density, we would all live on top of each other. We Dont, some prefer to live out and partake in things and then go home. A measure of success is people flow (how many visitors from outside of the general area) how much money is infused into the local economy and how often. That's a metric downtown cbus just doesn't compete with Indy right now. Just the conventions alone put them in different tiers just like holy cross could never compare to short north as far as hoods go. Now fountain sq and German village are getting more comparable. There are 28 restaurants in gv (source: their web site) yet there are now 31 in fountain sq just se of downtown Indy. Both also have galleries and such but fountain sq no way has the density of gv. Of course gv is fully established while fs is in the tail end of gentrification + i65 creates a separation between it and up and coming fletcher place in se quad downtown.
Because we have 1000 better things to do with our life than engage in a pissing match? Are jobs that scarce in Columbus or something?
It is not like any of us created multiple alter egos and constructed differing back stories to sound like multiple people are fleeing Illinois to move to the holy land of Indiana.
I was just asking you. You said C-bus had caught up with Indy. I was just asking you for your reasoning. You can frame your response however you want.
Yes......a burn is what I was after
Well, here's what I see as positives and negatives in both.
Positives
Indy: Nice parks in the area, nice monuments, Cultural Trail, some walkable areas around Monument Circle, especially, some nice amenities, ongoing infill projects.
Columbus: Nice parks in the area (it will be adding 3 more within the next few years), Arena District, High Street Corridor, Gay Street-Neighborhood Launch, some nice amenities, downtown surrounded by strong urban neighborhoods, ongoing infill.
Negatives
Indy: Terrible mass transit, too many parking craters, lack of surrounding strong urban core, suburban mall sucking away potential expansion of retail around the downtown, not very much downtown construction for a city its size, especially residential, higher crime in general (this may be more an overall city issue than downtown, though).
Columbus: Terrible mass transit, too many parking craters, not enough larger-scale construction projects for a city its size, not enough night life yet, need improved construction standards on ongoing infill (see Highpoint).
For what exists right now, Indy may still have the edge, but I guess I just don't see a huge difference in quality right now.
Originally Posted by msamhunter;
I think you are trying to incorporate density with better. That is a personal
metric. If everyone wanted density, we would all live on top of each other. We
Dont, some prefer to live out and partake in things and then go home. A measure
of success is people flow (how many visitors from outside of the general area)
how much money is infused into the local economy and how often. That's a metric
downtown cbus just doesn't compete with Indy right now. Just the conventions
alone put them in different tiers just like holy cross could never compare to
short north as far as hoods go. Now fountain sq and German village are getting
more comparable. There are 28 restaurants in gv (source: their web site) yet
there are now 31 in fountain sq just se of downtown Indy. Both also have
galleries and such but fountain sq no way has the density of gv. Of course gv is
fully established while fs is in the tail end of gentrification + i65 creates a
separation between it and up and coming fletcher place in se quad
downtown.[/quote
But we're talking about a downtown. If any place in a city is supposed to have density, it's that area. Sure, people can live wherever they want, and there are a wide range of choices, from urban to suburban, in just about every city.
I have no idea how many people visit Columbus every year, nor for Indy. Do you have those numbers?
German Village is not in Downtown, it's just to the south and a separate neighborhood. It's also largely residential, with only a scattered amount of retail. It's been that way since it was built in the 1800s... the type of mixed-use neighborhood that was fairly common to the time. It's probably one of the best-preserved historic neighborhoods in the Midwest, and was one of the largest areas in terms of neighborhoods ever put on the National Register of Historic Places. Fountain Square may be perfectly nice, but it's not that. FS is more like Olde Towne or Weinland Park... a neighborhood that saw a lot of decline but is on its way back.
Speaking of the highway separation, that is one commonality between FS and GV in terms of their connections to their downtowns. A plan is in place now to build highway caps, similar to the 670 cap in the Short North, to reconnect German Village with Downtown by building across the highway. These will be constructed during the rebuilding of 70 over the next few years.
It is not like any of us created multiple alter egos and constructed differing back stories to sound like multiple people are fleeing Illinois to move to the holy land of Indiana.
It is not like any of us created multiple alter egos and constructed differing back stories to sound like multiple people are fleeing Illinois to move to the holy land of Indiana.
Oh........wait.
Oh I remember.
For some of the more frequent posters in the Indiana and especially the Indianapolis forum, many of us remember "BroadRippleGuy". Possibly the most obnoxious homer that ever did live. With respect, he was an 18 year old high school student throughout most of his posting career on C-D, he lived in South Bend Indiana, over 100 miles from Indianapolis, but insisted on how Indianapolis blew Chicago out of the water in terms of pretty much everything. Pitting Indianapolis against any of the Ohio cities was too low for him to even consider, it was always Indy vs Chicago, Indy as the crowned jewel of the midwest. Eventually he was banned for a collection of reasons, mostly trolling and personal attacks though.
For some of the more frequent posters in the Indiana and especially the Indianapolis forum, many of us remember "BroadRippleGuy". Possibly the most obnoxious homer that ever did live. With respect, he was an 18 year old high school student throughout most of his posting career on C-D, he lived in South Bend Indiana, over 100 miles from Indianapolis, but insisted on how Indianapolis blew Chicago out of the water in terms of pretty much everything. Pitting Indianapolis against any of the Ohio cities was too low for him to even consider, it was always Indy vs Chicago, Indy as the crowned jewel of the midwest. Eventually he was banned for a collection of reasons, mostly trolling and personal attacks though.
Indeed, and he walks among us again.
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I guess there's some backstory here I'm missing.
