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Old 10-23-2017, 10:31 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder View Post
Well, it was one of the most visited cities in the nation, which would account for its disproportionate "feel", in terms of infrastructure and influence. Post-Katrina, I'm not sure that holds up anymore.
I believe New Orleans has recently exceeded its Pre-Katrina tourists numbers.
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Old 10-23-2017, 09:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
Itís not just tourism. New Orleans was a top 10 US city by population, and didnít fall out of the top 20 until the 1980 census. It feels like a big city because it was, and it has the legacy infrastructure. Even post Katrina, it feels like a big city.
Excellent point. In the 1960 census, NOLA had a population of 627k. Its Southern peers included Memphis (497k), Atlanta (487k), Miami (291k), Charlotte (201k), Nashville (171k) and Birmingham (340k)
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Old 10-24-2017, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
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-Atlanta doesn't feel larger than its size; it feels in the right spot. DC does feel larger...

-Cleveland absolutely does NOT feel larger than it actually is, I have no clue where people get this from, other than wishing it were true from its laurels. Cleveland feels what it is, a ~2 million person metro, and an easy argument can be made that it feels smaller than a lot if it's peers. Pittsburgh feels to be on the large end but I don't know id say it feels larger than maybe 2.7 million. Baltimore feels larger...

Regarding Pittsburgh's "village feel", I will specifically contend that is an honest interpretation. The Southside feels like a collection of, if not "villages", it is very reminiscent of small town Appalachia with a more urban form. We dined a few times at the Eat N'Park on Liberty in South Hills; that entire South Hills/Dormont area is very village-like. Even going further into the city, the Allentown/South Side Slopes/East Carson areas have the same feel, as does Oakland and surroundings (toured the UPitt area and ate at a Popeyes on Fifth to satisfy my fried chicken cravings); Oakland is like a college town plopped into the middle of a city...

None if this should be misconstrued as suggesting Pittsburgh isn't urban, but a if a place can be both urban and unnassumingly quaint, Pittsburgh is that place, and I think that is a strong, strong benefit. I think that every neighborhood seems to have it's own main street, it's own local everything, lends to the overwhelming sense of community. Pittsburgh has traditional seeming urban form, and then it has suburban-like feel in neighborhoods like the West End or Crafton Heights. Pittsburgh is unique in this regard and I find it very attractive that it's a large city with a semblance of small-town vibe...

--People are underselling Charlotte. It's coming to it's own as a city that feels larger than it actually is. It doesn't feel smaller than Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Indy, KC, or Sacramento, and I find it very hard to believe it feels smaller than most of the other peer cities. It feels slightly smaller than Baltimore, but only slightly so. I've been to both many times, even in recent years (Clt last in '16, Bmore last in '14), including living in Charlotte at one point, and Baltimore is not a city that one feels an enormous size differential from Charlotte in...

Charlotte clearly isn't everyone's taste, but it's downtown is as large or larger than everyone else in its peer group. Combine that with its vibrancy (which is definitely underrated and has several peer downtowns beat), rapid building and population growth, large land area, and all the statistics to back it up, I find it questionable for someone to claim Charlotte feels smaller than it actually is. If your "major cities" list is only the top 5-10 cities in this country, Charlotte isn't a major city, but if your list includes a Top 20, Charlotte is in that conversation for sure, maybe only a spot or two outside of it...

-I'd say it's safe to say Baltimore feels larger than it actually is. I don't think Nashville feels larger than any peer city in size, except Providence, which feels smaller. Nashville is at the ass end (aka the small end) of its peer group and it feels that way...

-Indianapolis does not feel smaller than its size; it feels adequate. Likewise, Birmingham does not feel larger than its size, I don't even know where people get that from. Birmingham has one of the smallest "feels" Of it's peer group, though I'd hesitate to say it feels smaller. It feels adequately placed...

-Richmond "feels" on the larger and of its peer group, though maybe not larger than that group. Sacramento actually surprised me in that it feels comparably sized to peer cities, my assumption was that it would feel smaller....

-when considering Norfolk/Virginia Beach, one has to take into account that it's an oversized metro that combined two metros together. It feels smaller than peer metros. If you look at the cities individually, both Norfolk and Virginia Beach feel the same size, probably because they seamlessly blend into each other; though The Beach has a +200,000 person advantage, it doesnt feel larger than Norfolk. And though Norfolk has a more urban core city, it doesnt feel larger than Virginia Beach, it just has a larger downtown...

They don't operate as one city politically but functionally, in terms of the movement if people and the cultural crossover between both (people attend events in both cities), they are more one city than not, so when viewing them as one city, you have to look at its portion of the Hampton Roads MSA, which is 1.194 million population. The combination of the two or the two taken individually are and look smaller than Richmond in every way, and if you put their 1.194 million with that peer group, it fits right there at the small end. I wouldn't say it feels smaller than that group (Buffalo, Birmingham, Rochester, etc), but it damn sure doesn't feel larger...

-lol Asheville feels slightly larger than its size but let's not get carried away here, it doesnt feel like a big city. Memphis feels country-ish, but it feels larger than people give it credit for. Nashville is bigger, but there is no real demonstrable difference in feeling of size differential. Nashville blows Memphis away in other criteria, but neither "feel" larger than the other...

-Knoxville is definitely a city I think feels larger than its size, it feels very comparable--in size, not necessarily amenities--to any city with an MSA between 1-1.1 million. It does not feel much smaller than Birmingham or Buffalo, only slightly so. Little Rock feels adequately sized, smaller than Knoxville and on the small e.d of its peer group...
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Old 10-24-2017, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Seminole County, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
-Atlanta doesn't feel larger than its size; it feels in the right spot. DC does feel larger...
I never thought Atlanta felt big at all. It's comparable in size to Miami, but Miami feels much bigger -- and more dense.

I'll agree with DC though. It definitely feels bigger than it is.
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Old 10-24-2017, 01:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
-Atlanta doesn't feel larger than its size; it feels in the right spot. DC does feel larger...
Both Atlanta and DC feel about where they should be to me. If DC proper had a traditional highrise skyline, I'd probably say it would feel larger.

Quote:
--People are underselling Charlotte. It's coming to it's own as a city that feels larger than it actually is. It doesn't feel smaller than Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Indy, KC, or Sacramento, and I find it very hard to believe it feels smaller than most of the other peer cities. It feels slightly smaller than Baltimore, but only slightly so. I've been to both many times, even in recent years (Clt last in '16, Bmore last in '14), including living in Charlotte at one point, and Baltimore is not a city that one feels an enormous size differential from Charlotte in...

Charlotte clearly isn't everyone's taste, but it's downtown is as large or larger than everyone else in its peer group. Combine that with its vibrancy (which is definitely underrated and has several peer downtowns beat), rapid building and population growth, large land area, and all the statistics to back it up, I find it questionable for someone to claim Charlotte feels smaller than it actually is. If your "major cities" list is only the top 5-10 cities in this country, Charlotte isn't a major city, but if your list includes a Top 20, Charlotte is in that conversation for sure, maybe only a spot or two outside of it...
I can actually understand people saying that Charlotte feels smaller than it is, and it depends on your frame of reference. There's not much that screams "big city urbanity" outside of the core of Uptown/South End like in Charlotte's Northern peers so in that respect, I get it. But from a Sunbelt perspective, Charlotte feels about where it should be.

To me, Greensboro feels like a bigger city because of its highway network and large venues, although its downtown has a rather small footprint.
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
Both Atlanta and DC feel about where they should be to me. If DC proper had a traditional highrise skyline, I'd probably say it would feel larger.



I can actually understand people saying that Charlotte feels smaller than it is, and it depends on your frame of reference. There's not much that screams "big city urbanity" outside of the core of Uptown/South End like in Charlotte's Northern peers so in that respect, I get it. But from a Sunbelt perspective, Charlotte feels about where it should be.

To me, Greensboro feels like a bigger city because of its highway network and large venues, although its downtown has a rather small footprint.
See, I get a different perception from these cities...

DC's lack of tall skyline is a no issue for me, because of how seamlessly it's urban form spreads from The District to Maryland to Virginia. It's amenities and energy and look, everything about it feels larger than Atlanta to me, which of course has multiple large skylines. Atlanta doesn't feel small but it feels smaller than DC to me and was easily noticeable to me in short order...

Charlotte can match amenities with almost any peer city. Specifically regarding those cities that I'd consider it peers to that I've been to--Cleveland, Indianapolis, Sacramento, Pittsburgh, Kansas City--, only Pittsburgh can argue for having a better downtown. I also consider Charlotte a peer of Baltimore, and though I'd put Baltimore ahead in hierarchical order, I don't have an impression of Downtown Baltimore as a better downtown...

Away from the downtowns, I think Charlotte does have a few more notable neighborhoods. I think the fact that it has expanding mass transit, a major airport, a large interstate system, also contributes to it feeling at least adequately sized, if not larger. I understand how people who don't prefer a city with a large suburban build wouldn't prefer Charlotte, but that's but one factor to consider. It definitely holds up, and surpasses some of its peers, when other factors that contribute to it's large feel, some of which I just mentioned, are considered...

Lol Greensboro feels like a tiny tinsel town. It has a smaller presence than Albany, Knoxville, Columbia...I don't get a larger city vibe from it at all. It's most prominent venues are outdated and old, and it's large interstate system is wide and empty. I've never been on a packed I-40 through Greensboro, or any of its spurs. Yes, I understand this is partly by design, I just don't get how a vast, empty freeway makes a city feel large. Little Rock also has a large and empty freeway...
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:57 AM
 
Location: Land of Ill Noise
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Re: Indianapolis

For everyone mentioning that city, in a way I see what those arguments are saying about it being smaller than its population are coming from. What some may not realize, is that decades ago(in the 1970s I think), the city of Indianapolis and Marion County merged their governments together, hence why the population seems inflated. Though as I recall, the 4 communities still are self governing with their own town/village council and etc(Southport, Speedway, Lawrence, and Beech Grove), and that Marion County provides services such as library branches. I'll allow someone from the Indianapolis area to correct me, if my understanding is wrong.

To me, yes Indy is a small city and metro area, but I'd disagree it punches smaller than its population. A lot of the offices and companies are located outside of that city, such as northeast of there in Fishers. And it anchors a greater metro area of many nearby counties that includes nearby places as far away as Anderson, and is fast growing for sure. I'd agree with murksiderock, who said Indy is an adequate city for what it is. I've visited Indy numerous times(including in its outlaying neighborhoods), and yes while its skyline looks small at first glance, it really does punch well for what it is. Check out neighborhoods like Irvington(east of downtown), Saint Joseph, Herron Morton, Meridian Park, and Broad Ripple(last 4 are north of downtown) to get a feel for what Indy is like. Sorry I'm tired, otherwise I'd post some Google street views of Indy myself.
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Old 10-26-2017, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Bellingham, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
See, I get a different perception from these cities...

DC's lack of tall skyline is a no issue for me, because of how seamlessly it's urban form spreads from The District to Maryland to Virginia. It's amenities and energy and look, everything about it feels larger than Atlanta to me, which of course has multiple large skylines. Atlanta doesn't feel small but it feels smaller than DC to me and was easily noticeable to me in short order...

Charlotte can match amenities with almost any peer city. Specifically regarding those cities that I'd consider it peers to that I've been to--Cleveland, Indianapolis, Sacramento, Pittsburgh, Kansas City--, only Pittsburgh can argue for having a better downtown. I also consider Charlotte a peer of Baltimore, and though I'd put Baltimore ahead in hierarchical order, I don't have an impression of Downtown Baltimore as a better downtown...

Away from the downtowns, I think Charlotte does have a few more notable neighborhoods. I think the fact that it has expanding mass transit, a major airport, a large interstate system, also contributes to it feeling at least adequately sized, if not larger. I understand how people who don't prefer a city with a large suburban build wouldn't prefer Charlotte, but that's but one factor to consider. It definitely holds up, and surpasses some of its peers, when other factors that contribute to it's large feel, some of which I just mentioned, are considered...

Lol Greensboro feels like a tiny tinsel town. It has a smaller presence than Albany, Knoxville, Columbia...I don't get a larger city vibe from it at all. It's most prominent venues are outdated and old, and it's large interstate system is wide and empty. I've never been on a packed I-40 through Greensboro, or any of its spurs. Yes, I understand this is partly by design, I just don't get how a vast, empty freeway makes a city feel large. Little Rock also has a large and empty freeway...
I disagree about Charlotte seeming like a bigger city, though it's doing it's best to change things. It does have most amenities that come in a major metro, but there are several substantial things that lead to the perception of it feeling smaller. The main reason is due to the generally low density and that the amount of the metro area considered urban is surprisingly small for the population. Highlighting that point, in 2010 the metro population was the population was ranked 22nd overall, but the urban population was ranked 38th. Therefore, the overall metro feels less city-like than substantially smaller peers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...as#cite_note-1. Away from the interstates, one can't help but to notice that the metro area is quite large in land area, but also that much of it is rural.

Anyway, back to the structure, inside the I-277/I-77 loop it is urban with a grid system, but leave the 1 mile by 1 mile square and there is very little density. It goes straight into large, suburban lots, with no high density ring of residential surrounding it. Again, I know that they're trying to fill things in now, but until very recently there was very little with a mile or so of downtown that would indicate that you were anywhere near a "big city." In several directions from downtown you can almost literally live in the shadow of a skyscraper and yet feel remarkably suburban. Further, another thing that has always (IMHO) contributed to the perception is the lack of walkability and lack of connectedness- it's much more like a huge conglomeration of subdivisions, not dense neighborhoods. Of course, many Sunbelt cities experience this problem, but few on the level of Charlotte, which tends to rank around the very bottom of the list: Charlotte trails nation in walkability rankings | PlanCharlotte.org. Many streets don't connect and/or have sidewalks and most residential areas are not zoned to have any commercialized areas in or nearby. Unlike other places I've lived, before Uber and Lyft it was a nightmare to get transportation to places going out because everything is so spread out. Prohibitively high cab fares between areas in town meant that people hardly ever considered them an option....

The other component I noticed when living there was that the city population itself was a bit deceptive. Sure, it's growing fast, but the numbers have a lot more to do with annexation. The chamber and tourism executives have long bragged about the city's population (top 20 in the USA, may soon become the biggest city in the south!) but no one outside Charlotte really thinks of it as a bigger city than Miami or Atlanta.

Overall, I'd say the city is making great strides to take things to the next level- transportation, infill, etc. but the structure is so spread out that it will be tough to overcome the low density issue for a long time. I have no doubt that things will improve, but I didn't have the patience to see it turn into the city it may one day become....
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Old 10-26-2017, 03:11 AM
 
Location: NYntarctica
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Bigger than their population

1. Boston
2. San Francisco
3. New Orleans
4. Charleston
5. Savannah
6. Honolulu
7. Washington DC
8. Oakland
9. New Haven
10. Miami

Smaller than their population

1. Fort Worth
2. Oklahoma City
3. Charlotte
4. El Paso
5. Phoenix
6. Jacksonville
7. Columbus
8. Indianapolis
9. Raleigh
10. Tucson
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Old 10-26-2017, 05:32 AM
 
Location: Chicago
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Any list of cities that feel much bigger than they are would have to include Madison. This gem of a city is squeezed into a narrow isthmus between two lakes, creating a density and bustle within its core (downtown, capitol, campus) that is highly urban, arguably more so than the feel of Wisconsin's largest city, Milwaukee.
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