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View Poll Results: Most Powerful City in the Midwest outside of Chi Det and Min
St Louis 42 36.21%
Indianapolis 15 12.93%
Cleveland 31 26.72%
Milwaukee 6 5.17%
Omaha 4 3.45%
Columbus 4 3.45%
Other? Explain 1 0.86%
Cincinnatti 3 2.59%
Louisville 1 0.86%
Kansas City 9 7.76%
Voters: 116. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-20-2015, 03:35 PM
 
892 posts, read 1,081,442 times
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Cleverfield, you may as well be talking about St. Louis too. The same exact dynamics and settlement patterns apply here too, with the North Side having received the lion's share of blacks migrating to St. Louis during the Industrial Revolution. And yes, I am talking about TODAY, not just the '60s. TODAY Cleveland is a more segregated region than St. Louis is, that is based on empirical data that I linked to in my previous post. To address your question as to why Cleveland didn't react the same way to police brutality as what you saw in Ferguson-- that all has to do with the way it was handled from the beginning. Ferguson is a suburb of St. Louis whose police department and government system was completely incompetent to handle the severity of the incident that sparked all the fallout. Since then, St. Louis City also experienced similar incidents but did not have the same violent uprising because the City is so much better equipped to handle that kind of situation. The PR and communication protocol is key whenever something like that occurs, and Ferguson was like amateur hour from the start. Your point is pretty moot on that subject anyway. Lest I remind you of the Rodney King riots in LA following that incident? Does Cleveland have better race relations than LA too? And if you think there aren't MANY black people occupying high-ranking office in STL then you just don't know St. Louis. We've had two black mayors since the 1990s and at least half (probably more) of elected offices in the city are occupied by black people. STL is also home to the largest black-owned technology company in the nation (Worldwide Technologies), and the city has long been a center of black culture and a solid black Aristocracy dating back to the mid-19th Century. Calling St. Louis a "racial powder keg" while somehow giving Cleveland a pass in that department is disingenuous, misleading and downright false. There is absolutely no basis whatsoever to your claim that race relations in St. Louis are any worse than in Cleveland, not at all. Your assertions are nothing more than superficial, biased observations based on sensationalized headlines that rarely ever consider context or mitigating circumstances.
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Tampa - St. Louis
1,090 posts, read 1,628,723 times
Reputation: 1513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverfield View Post
Getting back on topic....

One advantage I will say I think Cleveland has over St. Louis is better race relations. Cleveland is less southern, and has had a long history of racial tolerance. Yes, we've had our issues, but we had the first black mayor of a major US city (Carl Stokes in 1968), nationally renowned integration programs in schools (Shaker Heights), and a large black middle class. We haven't experienced riots like the St. Louis area did, despite having incidents of police brutality against Black people. That's largely because Cleveland didn't have the same "powder keg" situation that Ferguson (and Baltimore) did.
If only this was true. Yes, St. Louis is more "Southern", but this is a total b.s. statement and the definition of reaching. Both cities are among the most racially polarized cities in America, neither has better race relations. There is also some interesting stereotypes lately that Southern cities have worse race relations than their Northern counterparts, also false.
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Tampa - St. Louis
1,090 posts, read 1,628,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverfield View Post
We're talking about today, not the 60s. Cleveland has had several high profile incidents involving white officers and Black victims of police violence, but we haven't seen riots. Why do you think that is?

Your links are a perfect example of statistics not telling the whole story. The main reason Cleveland looks so segregated on paper is because Cleveland is divided in half, both geographically and culturally, by the Cuyahoga River, and this is mostly due to historical patterns of settlement. There are very few Blacks, Jews, or Italians on the West Side. There's 1 synagogue on the West Side, and 38 on the East Side (Next Year in Tremont?: Cleveland’s Jews and the East/West Divide | Belt Magazine | Dispatches From The Rust Belt). That's not due to racism, but rather where people's families settled. Sure, block busting and redlining took place here in the 60s, just like most other large cities in those days, I won't deny that segregation and racism have been, and continue to be, problems here. But Blacks migrating north in the 50s and 60s mostly moved to the East Side by choice, because that's where most of the jobs were, and that's where their community was. Today, most East Side suburbs are racially mixed, and people don't have a problem with it. There are well-respected Black people in positions of power throughout the region. Are we a racial paradise? No, of course not, but we're far from a racial powder keg.
Dude that's the definition of segregation, whether its de facto or forced, its still segregation.
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Tampa - St. Louis
1,090 posts, read 1,628,723 times
Reputation: 1513
Quote:
Originally Posted by STLgasm View Post
Cleverfield, you may as well be talking about St. Louis too. The same exact dynamics and settlement patterns apply here too, with the North Side having received the lion's share of blacks migrating to St. Louis during the Industrial Revolution. And yes, I am talking about TODAY, not just the '60s. TODAY Cleveland is a more segregated region than St. Louis is, that is based on empirical data that I linked to in my previous post. To address your question as to why Cleveland didn't react the same way to police brutality as what you saw in Ferguson-- that all has to do with the way it was handled from the beginning. Ferguson is a suburb of St. Louis whose police department and government system was completely incompetent to handle the severity of the incident that sparked all the fallout. Since then, St. Louis City also experienced similar incidents but did not have the same violent uprising because the City is so much better equipped to handle that kind of situation. The PR and communication protocol is key whenever something like that occurs, and Ferguson was like amateur hour from the start. Your point is pretty moot on that subject anyway. Lest I remind you of the Rodney King riots in LA following that incident? Does Cleveland have better race relations than LA too? And if you think there aren't MANY black people occupying high-ranking office in STL then you just don't know St. Louis. We've had two black mayors since the 1990s and at least half (probably more) of elected offices in the city are occupied by black people. STL is also home to the largest black-owned technology company in the nation (Worldwide Technologies), and the city has long been a center of black culture and a solid black Aristocracy dating back to the mid-19th Century. Calling St. Louis a "racial powder keg" while somehow giving Cleveland a pass in that department is disingenuous, misleading and downright false. There is absolutely no basis whatsoever to your claim that race relations in St. Louis are any worse than in Cleveland, not at all. Your assertions are nothing more than superficial, biased observations based on sensationalized headlines that rarely ever consider context or mitigating circumstances.
Not to mention we had a very popular black county executive for a suburban county that is over 75% white and doesn't include the city center.
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:53 PM
 
Location: NYC/CLE
525 posts, read 448,758 times
Reputation: 341
Neither Cleveland or St Louis have good race relations. If you think one city has better race relations then the other, you are either a homer or delusional
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Cleveland
3,179 posts, read 3,851,423 times
Reputation: 2478
Quote:
Originally Posted by STLgasm View Post
Cleverfield, you may as well be talking about St. Louis too. The same exact dynamics and settlement patterns apply here too, with the North Side having received the lion's share of blacks migrating to St. Louis during the Industrial Revolution. And yes, I am talking about TODAY, not just the '60s. TODAY Cleveland is a more segregated region than St. Louis is, that is based on empirical data that I linked to in my previous post. To address your question as to why Cleveland didn't react the same way to police brutality as what you saw in Ferguson-- that all has to do with the way it was handled from the beginning. Ferguson is a suburb of St. Louis whose police department and government system was completely incompetent to handle the severity of the incident that sparked all the fallout. Since then, St. Louis City also experienced similar incidents but did not have the same violent uprising because the City is so much better equipped to handle that kind of situation. The PR and communication protocol is key whenever something like that occurs, and Ferguson was like amateur hour from the start. Your point is pretty moot on that subject anyway. Lest I remind you of the Rodney King riots in LA following that incident? Does Cleveland have better race relations than LA too? And if you think there aren't MANY black people occupying high-ranking office in STL then you just don't know St. Louis. We've had two black mayors since the 1990s and at least half (probably more) of elected offices in the city are occupied by black people. STL is also home to the largest black-owned technology company in the nation (Worldwide Technologies), and the city has long been a center of black culture and a solid black Aristocracy dating back to the mid-19th Century. Calling St. Louis a "racial powder keg" while somehow giving Cleveland a pass in that department is disingenuous, misleading and downright false. There is absolutely no basis whatsoever to your claim that race relations in St. Louis are any worse than in Cleveland, not at all. Your assertions are nothing more than superficial, biased observations based on sensationalized headlines that rarely ever consider context or mitigating circumstances.
Your own link said: “St. Louis, like Louisville and Baltimore, is Southern in race relations and Northern in its organization of property,” (The 10 most segregated urban areas in America | Slide Show - Salon.com)

Listen to this episode of This American Life, about a school in the inner city of St. Louis that lost accreditation, transferred to a suburban district, and the way suburban parents responded. (The Problem We All Live With | This American Life, the St. Louis area story starts at about 11 minutes in) IMO the way these parents talked about these kids was despicable. While we might see some of the same reactions in the Cleveland area, I don't think it would be as strong.

Last edited by Cleverfield; 08-20-2015 at 05:25 PM..
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:17 PM
 
2,601 posts, read 4,074,417 times
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This thread should be renamed Cleveland Vs. St. Louis. Seriously, is there really more to say?
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Old 08-20-2015, 08:05 PM
 
3,786 posts, read 3,009,395 times
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I think that for the sake of argument here, STL and CLE are closest together. It isn't that the other cities don't offer a lot, or are necessarily "better" or "worse". Just that in terms of overall clout and ranking
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Old 08-20-2015, 08:27 PM
 
892 posts, read 1,081,442 times
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Originally Posted by clevelander1991 View Post
I think that for the sake of argument here, STL and CLE are closest together. It isn't that the other cities don't offer a lot, or are necessarily "better" or "worse". Just that in terms of overall clout and ranking
Agreed 100%. Clevelanders- how do you feel that Cincinnati's MSA population has eclipsed Cleveland's (at least on paper)?
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Old 08-20-2015, 09:08 PM
 
Location: NYC/CLE
525 posts, read 448,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STLgasm View Post
Agreed 100%. Clevelanders- how do you feel that Cincinnati's MSA population has eclipsed Cleveland's (at least on paper)?
CSA matters more, especially in Cleveland's case with Akron being so close by. And CLE is still far and away the largest CSA in Ohio, and a top 15 CSA nationally
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