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I agree with this. Louisville has tons of intact urban walkable neighborhoods surrounding downtown as well. I think KC is much larger and more built up over all and has more dense feeling urban districts including historic warehouse districts that are becoming residential, but Louisville probably has a better urban fabric of single family urban neighborhoods than all the other cities.
This is 100% true. Louisville has the best historic, architecturally significant, walkable single family homes in cohesive neighborhoods compared with the other 3 (even if shotgun homes are not your thing). This is not even close. KC feels more urban because of the warehouse effect, but I can show you some aerials of Louisville that would surprise you with the density of mid rises and high-rises and in how many directions they go.
Keep in mind, the Highlands and St matthews have nice little high-rise districts. On top of that, there are at least 3 proposal for high-rise condo/apartments towers along Cherokee Park in the Highlands, among the billions of other construction going on in the city.
Last edited by Peter1948; 10-01-2015 at 08:14 PM..
Louisville has always been a classy city. I remember when Lord and Taylor opened and it made the news down here in Nashville. Nordstrom had plans for Mall St. Matthews back in 2000. Even Cincinnati didn't have these stores. But it was doomed to fail with the lack of high incomes/population and poor aesthetic appeal. Lord and Taylor closed in 2004, and Nordstrom backed out. Today, however, I could see Louisville handing more high end shopping, as there is pent up demand for high end shopping there. Nordstrom Rack is there, and I expect others to follow suit with renewed interest. However, most of these stores won't touch a metro under 2 million, unless there is a significant concentration of high incomes and traffic (i.e. Charleston, SC, Sarasota, FL, Birmingham, AL.)
Louisville has always been a classy city. I remember when Lord and Taylor opened and it made the news down here in Nashville. Nordstrom had plans for Mall St. Matthews back in 2000. Even Cincinnati didn't have these stores. But it was doomed to fail with the lack of high incomes/population and poor aesthetic appeal. Lord and Taylor closed in 2004, and Nordstrom backed out. Today, however, I could see Louisville handing more high end shopping, as there is pent up demand for high end shopping there. Nordstrom Rack is there, and I expect others to follow suit with renewed interest. However, most of these stores won't touch a metro under 2 million, unless there is a significant concentration of high incomes and traffic (i.e. Charleston, SC, Sarasota, FL, Birmingham, AL.)
Nordstrom backed out mostly due to unsightly high lease rates for a midsized market. When Nordstrom looks at an area for a store, it already has the demographics to support it. Oxmoor mall has become much more upscale since then, and is now the premiere mall in the region. When sears goes out of business, I could see Macy's moving into their spot (cheaper rent at back of mall) and Nordstrom going in as the anchor where Macy's was. Keep in mind Von Maur in Oxmoor is effectively Nordstrom...it is among the chain's best performing stores, and carries most, if not all, of the same upscale brands. It is a very classy store, very spacious between racks, a live piano player, and they only have 4 or 5 of each boutique piece. This isn't Dillard's or Macy's. Louisville apparently has very high retail lease rates for a city this size. Louisville's Summit Mall was supposed to get Crate and Barrel a couple years back, but they backed out due to lease rates. Then an Earth Fare upscale grocery took the spot in the mall, and rumor is they ended up getting a lower rate than they wanted.
Also, Louisville's Outlet Mall has Kate Spade, Gucci, Saks Off Fifth, and several other upscale brands. With no flagship Saks or Nordstrom, local boutiques are more robust that other similar sized cities... Louisville does have great wealth and places like Glenview and Mockingbird Valley are among the wealthiest small cities in the USA.
Nordstrom backed out mostly due to unsightly high lease rates for a midsized market. When Nordstrom looks at an area for a store, it already has the demographics to support it. Oxmoor mall has become much more upscale since then, and is now the premiere mall in the region. When sears goes out of business, I could see Macy's moving into their spot (cheaper rent at back of mall) and Nordstrom going in as the anchor where Macy's was. Keep in mind Von Maur in Oxmoor is effectively Nordstrom...it is among the chain's best performing stores, and carries most, if not all, of the same upscale brands. It is a very classy store, very spacious between racks, a live piano player, and they only have 4 or 5 of each boutique piece. This isn't Dillard's or Macy's. Louisville apparently has very high retail lease rates for a city this size. Louisville's Summit Mall was supposed to get Crate and Barrel a couple years back, but they backed out due to lease rates. Then an Earth Fare upscale grocery took the spot in the mall, and rumor is they ended up getting a lower rate than they wanted.
Also, Louisville's Outlet Mall has Kate Spade, Gucci, Saks Off Fifth, and several other upscale brands. With no flagship Saks or Nordstrom, local boutiques are more robust that other similar sized cities... Louisville does have great wealth and places like Glenview and Mockingbird Valley are among the wealthiest small cities in the USA.
Just one example...they carry Luis Vuitton, Ferragamo, Zegna, Vince, and many upscale brands normally found at Saks, Blooomie's or Neiman Marcus.
Von Maur is a great store with excellent customer service, but it is not quite a Nordstrom. Dillards can be a premium store like the ones in Dallas and Scottsdale, but are for the most part mid-level stores in many other markets. Earthfare, while a nice store, is a second rate Whole Foods at best. I wasn't particularly aware of Louisville's high lease rates, but that will definitely deter stores from coming, especially if they are considering taking a chance with a smaller market. I haven't been to the new outlet mall, but hear great things about it on the television. It's out of the way for most travelers on the way to Cincinnati (me), though, but is effectively shared between Louisville and Lexington, which makes sense. It's very common to find high end boutiques, thrifts, and second hand stores in markets lacking high end department stores like Louisville and Nashville. Speaking of Lexington, rumor has it that Nordstrom and Saks Fifth Avenue are looking at opening at the new Summit development. Considering the other Summit locations' offerings, I don't think it's out of the question. Whole Foods, Pottery Barn and other upscale retailers are committed to the Summit Lexington.
Urbanized area
Kansas City 1,519,417
Indianapolis 1,487,483
Louisville 972,546
Nashville 969,587
MSA area
Kansas City 2,071,133
Indianapolis 1,971,274
Nashville 1,792,649
Louisville 1,269,702
CSA area
Kansas City 2,393,623
Indianapolis 2,336,237
Nashville 1,876,933
Louisville 1,490,473
Urban area density (this is really the only density stat that can be used to compare do to underdeveloped land within outer portions of city limits etc)
Kansas City 2242 psm
Indianapolis 2108 psm
Louisville 2040 psm
Nashville 1721 psm
Central City population (all of these cities include huge suburban portions within city limits)
Indianapolis 848,788
Nashville 644,014
Louisville 612,780
Kansas City 470,800
Urbanized area
Kansas City 1,519,417
Indianapolis 1,487,483
Louisville 972,546
Nashville 969,587
MSA area
Kansas City 2,071,133
Indianapolis 1,971,274
Nashville 1,792,649
Louisville 1,269,702
CSA area
Kansas City 2,393,623
Indianapolis 2,336,237
Nashville 1,876,933
Louisville 1,490,473
Urban area density (this is really the only density stat that can be used to compare do to underdeveloped land within outer portions of city limits etc)
Kansas City 2242 psm
Indianapolis 2108 psm
Louisville 2040 psm
Nashville 1721 psm
Central City population (all of these cities include huge suburban portions within city limits)
Indianapolis 848,788
Nashville 644,014
Louisville 612,780
Kansas City 470,800
You would really have to understand how Nashville's hilly/rocky terrain hurts its density compared to the other cities which are primarily flat for the most part. Even in some parts of Nashville's metro area (Williamson, Cheatham, Dickson counties), there is a pattern of dense development, then huge swaths of empty land right beside it because it cannot be developed (at least cheaply anyway). Another aspect left out of urban area statistics is dedicated park/open space. Nashville has more dedicated park acreage than any of the cities on the list, which will affect the way the city grows and develops (see North and West Nashville). Having more green space is a positive thing, despite the fact that it will hurt density numbers. Urban area density, while a good measurement, has its flaws in those respects.
You would really have to understand how Nashville's hilly/rocky terrain hurts its density compared to the other cities which are primarily flat for the most part. Even in some parts of Nashville's metro area (Williamson, Cheatham, Dickson counties), there is a pattern of dense development, then huge swaths of empty land right beside it because it cannot be developed (at least cheaply anyway). Another aspect left out of urban area statistics is dedicated park/open space. Nashville has more dedicated park acreage than any of the cities on the list, which will affect the way the city grows and develops (see North and West Nashville). Having more green space is a positive thing, despite the fact that it will hurt density numbers. Urban area density, while a good measurement, has its flaws in those respects.
Here are the historic population numbers for the cities. I went back to 1880 which was the last census that Louisville was the largest city (Indianapolis was also larger than KC).
You can better compare population numbers pre 1940 as this is a more accurate comparison because this is before cities annexed excessive land and before suburban sprawl.
I'm also going to note the population of KCK for the historic numbers because the two Kansas Cities were very much one urban area back then while the other three cities did not have a companion urban area next to them. While KCK today functions more like a suburb, back then it functioned more like an extension of KCMO with an extensive streetcar system etc. It was not a suburb. It helps show why Kansas City was historically a larger urban city than it may appear by just looking at KCMO alone. Please post if you think the other cities had a similar situation. I'm not trying to make KC look better, I'm trying to do a fair comparison of how these cities compared at the time.
So before 1880, Louisville was definitely a larger city which helps explain why the city has some really good urban bones. However, Kansas City did quickly pull ahead in the early 1900's.
I also find it interesting that Nashville was actually considerably smaller than the others even into the 1940's. It's also interesting that Indianapolis was not far behind KC which is surprising because there really is a dramatic difference between the built environment of KC vs Indy. You can tell KC was very built up in the 1930's and it's still noticeable today while Indy just does not have the same urban bones. I'm honestly curious as to why that is. Was the city less industrial, did it have more single family areas and less warehouse districts and high rise and mid rise residential areas like KC has? Because when I look at these historic numbers, I think Indy should look and feel more urban and built up like central KCMO does.
Here are the modern stats for easy comparison:
Some population stats to chew on...
Urbanized area
Kansas City 1,519,417
Indianapolis 1,487,483
Louisville 972,546
Nashville 969,587
MSA area
Kansas City 2,071,133
Indianapolis 1,971,274
Nashville 1,792,649
Louisville 1,269,702
CSA area
Kansas City 2,393,623
Indianapolis 2,336,237
Nashville 1,876,933
Louisville 1,490,473
Urban area density (this is really the only density stat that can be used to compare do to underdeveloped land within outer portions of city limits etc)
Kansas City 2242 psm
Indianapolis 2108 psm
Louisville 2040 psm
Nashville 1721 psm
Central City population (all of these cities include huge suburban portions within city limits)
Indianapolis 848,788
Nashville 644,014
Louisville 612,780
Kansas City 470,800
I think the urbanized areas stats are deceptive for Nashville because it has a significant satellite city within its metro in Murfreesboro that's large enough to be considered its own urbanized area by the U.S. Census. I know there is not really a comparable satellite city near Louisville and Indy (although Carmel is getting good growth), but I don't have enough familiarity with KC to know much about it. It seems like it's probably an outlier here anyway. As Shakeesha points out, the density numbers are deceptive as well because giants swaths of the metro Nashville are sparsely populated. Even about a third of Nashville/Davidson County is practically uninhabited due to the terrain and lakes.
I think the urbanized areas stats are deceptive for Nashville because it has a significant satellite city within its metro in Murfreesboro that's large enough to be considered its own urbanized area by the U.S. Census. I know there is not really a comparable satellite city near Louisville and Indy (although Carmel is getting good growth), but I don't have enough familiarity with KC to know much about it. It seems like it's probably an outlier here anyway. As Shakeesha points out, the density numbers are deceptive as well because giants swaths of the metro Nashville are sparsely populated. Even about a third of Nashville/Davidson County is practically uninhabited due to the terrain and lakes.
I would imagine all the cities have nearby satellite/suburbs that are not part of the urbanized area. Lee's Summit is a suburb of KCMO as it actually touches the city limits of KCMO, but it's not part of the KC urbanized area and it's about 100k people. Murfreesbor is actually quite far from the Nashville though. That would be like including Lawrence in KC which are not even part of KC's MSA. I think Nashville actually compares well to the other cities. It's does not feel that much smaller than KC and feels about the same size as Indy and larger than Louisville. Although Louisville does have a more dense urban core.
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